All Time ODI XI

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="608543" data-time="1471996328">
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1- Too many Jaapies, Sid. :)
 
2- Usual problems of comparing across eras - in the 1980s 220 was a par score, these days it's 280 - so you probably need to knock at least 10 runs off today's top order batsmen's averages to compare them with batsmen in the 1980s. That's not entirely fair, because players today have simply got better at playing the game - Sir Viv would have to learn to play the ramp shot and the reverse sweep, or conversely today's batsmen would have to abandon them because they barely had helmets and visors when ODI cricket first kicked off.
 
3- On Amla - he's fashioned a superb record, but he doesn't scream "all time best" to me - a tier down as a very good player. To not put too fine a point on it, a team with two of the six best all time batsmen doesn't get knocked out by New Zealand in a World Cup semi.
 
4- On Pollock - well, he's probably part of the conversation, but for me Imram walks into the team ahead of both him and Kapil. Imran became a genuine specialist batsman as well as being a deadly bowler - Kapil more a bowler who could bat and hit massively - never had the genuine pace of Imran.
 
In fact, for the four great 80s allrounders I think most would rank them as bowlers: Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Botham*; as batsmen Botham*, Imran, Kapil, Hadlee.
 
Botham comes with an asterisk because he really had two careers - the first where he was fucking good and the second where he was a bit shit, really - injuries and a bad attitude. Imran sort of did too, in that he converted himself from a deadly pace bowler to a middle order batsman. It's possible that Imran at his peak was a marginally better bowler than Hadlee at his peak - but Sir Paddles never really faded and should also be part of the conversation.
 
5- On Murali, a marginally better bowling record than Warne, but a significantly worse batsman. Applying the logic in selecting Pollock, you'd surely also select Warnie? 
 
Edit: Bevan warrants a place - he was phenomenal in his day.
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1- Guilty as charged
 
2- The way I have tried to look at it is by comparing players to their contemporaries, otherwise the you would end up with a batting line-up from 2010 and bowling line-up 1980. But it also makes it fun as every position becomes far more debatable. 
 
3- As disappointing as our WC record is and even with with point two above, you simply can't ignore the sheer weight of runs he has has scored. Look at this stat to get an idea of his run scoring record. As I said, I am not looking to select the best players, I am looking to select a team to play the game as it is being played today - <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingBestAfterXInnings_ODI.asp?Stat=1'>http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingBestAfterXInnings_ODI.asp?Stat=1</a>
 
4- I am too young to have seen Kapil Dev or Kahn play so I am dependent on their records and accounts from people who did see them. In terms of Bowling record there is really nothing between them. In terms of average and strike rate Imran just shades Kapil Dev, while Kapil Dev has marginally better economy rate and much better aggregate numbers. Kapil Dev is selected for his batting role, in this team he would fulfill the role that Faulkner fulfilled for the Aussies in the last world cup of coming in an hitting 40 of 25 balls. In that role Kapil Dev is much much stronger Imran.
 
5- Murali bats at number 11, I don't think his batting makes a jot of difference. If you want to argue that Warne is a better player for his batting (his record is actually quite poor averaging 13 with the bat), then go ahead, but in this team he won't get in ahead of Wasim Akram as a bowler that can bat so has to make it as pure bowler, where as you say, Murali is better. Edit- Mustaq would actually be my next cab off the rank for the spinner spot, phenomenal record.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="608614" data-time="1472012216">
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It's pretty tough to substantiate but as a pure keeper surely before giving it away Baz was as good if not better than all of Gilly, Sanga, Dhoni and ABDV ? ( obviously overall batting isn't worth comparing )
 
I remember reading a sporting magazine a few years back that picked an all time Aus ODI team and both Gilly AND Healy made it which indicates to me the former wasn't the best gloveman. If I was picking Healy wouldn't have a shitshow.....
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I think Baz was probably the best in thew world for a while - he was a bloody good keeper. As was Healy - but, we can fail him on a no dickheads policy! :)
 
Actually, Heals didn't score enough runs particularly for my team which is a bit light on batting with Baz at six.

SidBarret

Without trying to do fourth XI there are a couple players that deserve a mention that are being overlooked here
 
Andrew Symonds - Was fantastic for time as slogger, handy change bowler and awesome fielder.
 
Lance Klusener - Statistically one of the greatest all-rounders with an average of over forty with the bat and under thirty with the ball. And who can forget his heroics at 1999 wc.
 
Brett Lee - Check out his stats, he was far better ODI bowler than test bowler and a genuine strike bowler. something my team is a little short on.
 
Mitchel Starc - Scores very highly in terms "better than his peers" rating. If he can keep up his current form for a another 100 games he will crack my first eleven as designated strike bowler.
 
Zaheer Abbas - <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/43695.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/43695.html</a> - Viv Richards like number back at the beginning of ODI cricket.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="608634" data-time="1472020636">
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4- I am too young to have seen Kapil Dev or Kahn play so I am dependent on their records and accounts from people who did see them. In terms of Bowling record there is really nothing between them. In terms of average and strike rate Imran just shades Kapil Dev, while Kapil Dev has marginally better economy rate and much better aggregate numbers. Kapil Dev is selected for his batting role, in this team he would fulfill the role that Faulkner fulfilled for the Aussies in the last world cup of coming in an hitting 40 of 25 balls. In that role Kapil Dev is much much stronger Imran.
 
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I guess it's all reasonably subjective, so I won't argue too hard.
 
On Amla, I guess statistically it's pretty hard to argue because you can just point to this:
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282911.html'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282911.html</a>
 
On the other hand, we could smugly be arguing that we've got three of the best 26 ODI batsmen in history playing for us at present - in Williamson, Taylor and Guptill (according to that list). But I don't really think that's true.
 
Anyway, here's Imran sorting a few batsmen out for you. Probably invented reverse swing - have a look at the two wickets at the three minute mark.

reprobate

i have two enduring memories of pace bowling performances in one day cricket. one was shane bond repeatedly dismantling an aussie ODI batting lineup which would be in the conversation for 'best ever'. the other is wasim akram repeatedly destroying NZ ODI batting lineups which would be in the conversation for... well... not bad. for us. i guess. i'd pick both of them for a start. 
 
i'd pick starc to open alongside bond (but i'm not fucking happy about that) and garner to bowl first change, and probably death. wasim can mostly bowl at the death, nasty reversing nightmare-giving yorkers. imran is super-tempting, but i just wouldn't want to leave any of those quicks out.
 
warne is my spinner, cause he doesn't chuck it, but muralitharan can be 12th man who plays for one of the seamers on spin-friendly pitches.
 
gotta pick sachin, viv richards, and AB. ponting and lara, sure, why not.
 
i have an irrational dislike of dhoni, so it's between sanga and gilchrist to keep - sanga is by far the better player. you could make a case that more smash is more valuable given the runs in the top order, but it's a long-ish tail with all my bowlers being not that flash with the bat.
 
1 sachin
2 lara
3 sangakarra
4 ponting
5 richards
6 AB
7 akram
8 starc
9 warne
10 bond
11 garner
12 (muralitharan)

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="608682" data-time="1472029326">
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i have two enduring memories of pace bowling performances in one day cricket. one was shane bond repeatedly dismantling an aussie ODI batting lineup which would be in the conversation for 'best ever'. the other is wasim akram repeatedly destroying NZ ODI batting lineups which would be in the conversation for... well... not bad. for us. i guess. i'd pick both of them for a start. 
 
i'd pick starc to open alongside bond (but i'm not fucking happy about that) and garner to bowl first change, and probably death. wasim can mostly bowl at the death, nasty reversing nightmare-giving yorkers. imran is super-tempting, but i just wouldn't want to leave any of those quicks out.
 
warne is my spinner, cause he doesn't chuck it, but muralitharan can be 12th man who plays for one of the seamers on spin-friendly pitches.
 
gotta pick sachin, viv richards, and AB. ponting and lara, sure, why not.
 
i have an irrational dislike of dhoni, so it's between sanga and gilchrist to keep - sanga is by far the better player. you could make a case that more smash is more valuable given the runs in the top order, but it's a long-ish tail with all my bowlers being not that flash with the bat.
 
1 sachin
2 lara
3 sangakarra
4 ponting
5 richards
6 AB
7 akram
8 starc
9 warne
10 bond
11 garner
12 (muralitharan)
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Shit that opening batting combo alone would put a few bums on seats but you'd be a bit worried in the unlikely event none of the top order fired. Not a huge amount of batting talent down low.

mariner4life

The chances of all those blokes failing in the one game would be pretty remote.

MN5

Reprobate I remember that performance from Bond that you mentioned and can't believe the Caps lost. Was it cos Fleming bowled him out and didn't save a couple of overs for later ? I don't recall exactly......
 
Seeing Bondy cause that amazing batting line up to jump about like a bunch of tail enders is one of my favourite cricketing memories ever.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="608807" data-time="1472093809">
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The chances of all those blokes failing in the one game would be pretty remote. 
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and if they did, i don't reckon i would be as worried as the opposition batsmen.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="608845" data-time="1472099195">
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Reprobate I remember that performance from Bond that you mentioned and can't believe the Caps lost. Was it cos Fleming bowled him out and didn't save a couple of overs for later ? I don't recall exactly......
 
Seeing Bondy cause that amazing batting line up to jump about like a bunch of tail enders is one of my favourite cricketing memories ever. 
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i reckon flem's use of bond was generally first rate - i guess sometimes one incredible guy just isn't quite enough to redress the overall gulf in class between the teams. it has to be one of the most astonishingly dominant performances in a losing side.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="608883" data-time="1472108770">
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i reckon flem's use of bond was generally first rate - i guess sometimes one incredible guy just isn't quite enough to redress the overall gulf in class between the teams. it has to be one of the most astonishingly dominant performances in a losing side.
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65279.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65279.html</a>
 
There's the card there. If memory serves Bichel got his score after Bond had finished his overs but have a look at the names in that top order, all of whom couldn't play him to save themselves. Amazing to think that wasn't even Bonds best figures, he got 6/19 vs India.
 
Cairns obviously injured and playing as a specialist batsman and what the fuck Vettori was doing opening the batting in a team that had Astle, Vincent and McCullum is anyones guess.

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="608807" data-time="1472093809">
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The chances of all those blokes failing in the one game would be pretty remote. 
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Actually not as remote as one would expect. The batsmen in your team scores 50+ in about 30% of their innings. So you can expect all of them to fail to make 50 in about 11% of their games (one game in 9, which is pretty good TBH). But ideally you need two batsmen to build a big partnership as it is no good one guy goes big, but runs out of partners at the other end. The chances of five failing to make 50 is one in game in 6. In that one game I would prefer to have couple of blokes that can hang around support the set batsman to build decent score.
 
Another consideration is how much freedom your fifth wicket partnership can play with knowing that the next wicket expose the tail.

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="608543" data-time="1471996328">
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On Pollock - well, he's probably part of the conversation, but for me Imram walks into the team ahead of both him and Kapil. Imran became a genuine specialist batsman as well as being a deadly bowler - Kapil more a bowler who could bat and hit massively - never had the genuine pace of Imran.
 
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609287" data-time="1472211485">
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).
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Yep, outstanding player, great in any conditions against any team too, got overshadowed by McGrath, Wasim & in SA, by Ntini and Donald, but he was an utter legend & very much in the same class as them (a lot better than Ntini), only a much better batsman.
 
I think he gets under-rated because a lot of the big ticket guys were blindingly fast (Donald, Aktar, Waqar, Lee) and he didn't look anything special.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="608557" data-time="1471999055">
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That team is not exactly shit M4L. Afridi and Bevan could swap positions depending on the situation ( if you need to rebuild or smash ) and you could put the house of one of numbers 3-5 getting a massive individual score. I was tempted to suggest Dravid but his ODI record is pretty ordinary ( 12 hundreds in 344 matches ) which surprised me, no way he gets in ahead of Kallis. Gilly and Sangakarra both automatic picks if you don't have the option of Dhoni.
 
I was thinking perhaps Gayle over M Waugh ( one all time favourite for another ) but in terms of an opening combo Gilly and Afghanistan were out of this world on their day. Would be nice to see Bond or Hadlee in there although for whom I don't know considering that bowling line up.....
 
As an aside can I nominate Imran Khan as, dare I say it, an "underrated" player ? his cricketing stats are out of this world, he comfortably beats the other three all rounders of his era. 
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I have not had a look at the comparative statistics however my recollection of Imran is his continuous competitiveness and scheming, very much like Shane Warne, and the influence this had on those around him, also like Warne. He played with the imperious, aloof certainty and self confidence of Viv Richards. He was one of the first who came to mind when I saw the subject matter.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609284" data-time="1472210932">
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Actually not as remote as one would expect. The batsmen in your team scores 50+ in about 30% of their innings. So you can expect all of them to fail to make 50 in about 11% of their games (one game in 9, which is pretty good TBH). But ideally you need two batsmen to build a big partnership as it is no good one guy goes big, but runs out of partners at the other end. The chances of five failing to make 50 is one in game in 6. In that one game I would prefer to have couple of blokes that can hang around support the set batsman to build decent score.
 
Another consideration is how much freedom your fifth wicket partnership can play with knowing that the next wicket expose the tail. 
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yep, but 4 of those 5 tail-enders have first class hundreds, and the odd one out is starc who may well be the best bat of the lot of them. they're not flash by any stretch, but they're not chris martin either.

TeWaio

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='

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nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="609289" data-time="1472211897">Yep, outstanding player, great in any conditions against any team too, got overshadowed by McGrath, Wasim & in SA, by Ntini and Donald, but he was an utter legend & very much in the same class as them (a lot better than Ntini), only a much better batsman. I think he gets under-rated because a lot of the big ticket guys were blindingly fast (Donald, Aktar, Waqar, Lee) and he didn't look anything special.</blockquote>Yes and he was consistently good at everything.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609287" data-time="1472211485">
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).
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Countering that - Imran played international cricket for 20 years and his bowling undoubtedly declined. For a couple of years in the mid-80s he was injured and played as a specialist batsman.
 
And, of course, he played a lot of cricket on dustbowl subcontinent pitches.
 
Although the thread is about one day cricket, it's also notable how good a batsman Imran became. He averaged more than 50 across his last 50 tests with the bat. Pretty much Kallis-esque, but much sharper with the ball.

MN5

Pollock was an all time great. End of story. Some say he actually underachieved with the bat too which is a scary thought overall.

The Silver Fern

All Time ODI XI