All Time ODI XI

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="608845" data-time="1472099195">
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Reprobate I remember that performance from Bond that you mentioned and can't believe the Caps lost. Was it cos Fleming bowled him out and didn't save a couple of overs for later ? I don't recall exactly......
 
Seeing Bondy cause that amazing batting line up to jump about like a bunch of tail enders is one of my favourite cricketing memories ever. 
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i reckon flem's use of bond was generally first rate - i guess sometimes one incredible guy just isn't quite enough to redress the overall gulf in class between the teams. it has to be one of the most astonishingly dominant performances in a losing side.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="608883" data-time="1472108770">
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i reckon flem's use of bond was generally first rate - i guess sometimes one incredible guy just isn't quite enough to redress the overall gulf in class between the teams. it has to be one of the most astonishingly dominant performances in a losing side.
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65279.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65279.html</a>
 
There's the card there. If memory serves Bichel got his score after Bond had finished his overs but have a look at the names in that top order, all of whom couldn't play him to save themselves. Amazing to think that wasn't even Bonds best figures, he got 6/19 vs India.
 
Cairns obviously injured and playing as a specialist batsman and what the fuck Vettori was doing opening the batting in a team that had Astle, Vincent and McCullum is anyones guess.

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="608807" data-time="1472093809">
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The chances of all those blokes failing in the one game would be pretty remote. 
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Actually not as remote as one would expect. The batsmen in your team scores 50+ in about 30% of their innings. So you can expect all of them to fail to make 50 in about 11% of their games (one game in 9, which is pretty good TBH). But ideally you need two batsmen to build a big partnership as it is no good one guy goes big, but runs out of partners at the other end. The chances of five failing to make 50 is one in game in 6. In that one game I would prefer to have couple of blokes that can hang around support the set batsman to build decent score.
 
Another consideration is how much freedom your fifth wicket partnership can play with knowing that the next wicket expose the tail.

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="608543" data-time="1471996328">
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On Pollock - well, he's probably part of the conversation, but for me Imram walks into the team ahead of both him and Kapil. Imran became a genuine specialist batsman as well as being a deadly bowler - Kapil more a bowler who could bat and hit massively - never had the genuine pace of Imran.
 
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609287" data-time="1472211485">
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).
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Yep, outstanding player, great in any conditions against any team too, got overshadowed by McGrath, Wasim & in SA, by Ntini and Donald, but he was an utter legend & very much in the same class as them (a lot better than Ntini), only a much better batsman.
 
I think he gets under-rated because a lot of the big ticket guys were blindingly fast (Donald, Aktar, Waqar, Lee) and he didn't look anything special.

Mick Gold Coast QLD

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="608557" data-time="1471999055">
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That team is not exactly shit M4L. Afridi and Bevan could swap positions depending on the situation ( if you need to rebuild or smash ) and you could put the house of one of numbers 3-5 getting a massive individual score. I was tempted to suggest Dravid but his ODI record is pretty ordinary ( 12 hundreds in 344 matches ) which surprised me, no way he gets in ahead of Kallis. Gilly and Sangakarra both automatic picks if you don't have the option of Dhoni.
 
I was thinking perhaps Gayle over M Waugh ( one all time favourite for another ) but in terms of an opening combo Gilly and Afghanistan were out of this world on their day. Would be nice to see Bond or Hadlee in there although for whom I don't know considering that bowling line up.....
 
As an aside can I nominate Imran Khan as, dare I say it, an "underrated" player ? his cricketing stats are out of this world, he comfortably beats the other three all rounders of his era. 
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I have not had a look at the comparative statistics however my recollection of Imran is his continuous competitiveness and scheming, very much like Shane Warne, and the influence this had on those around him, also like Warne. He played with the imperious, aloof certainty and self confidence of Viv Richards. He was one of the first who came to mind when I saw the subject matter.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609284" data-time="1472210932">
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Actually not as remote as one would expect. The batsmen in your team scores 50+ in about 30% of their innings. So you can expect all of them to fail to make 50 in about 11% of their games (one game in 9, which is pretty good TBH). But ideally you need two batsmen to build a big partnership as it is no good one guy goes big, but runs out of partners at the other end. The chances of five failing to make 50 is one in game in 6. In that one game I would prefer to have couple of blokes that can hang around support the set batsman to build decent score.
 
Another consideration is how much freedom your fifth wicket partnership can play with knowing that the next wicket expose the tail. 
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yep, but 4 of those 5 tail-enders have first class hundreds, and the odd one out is starc who may well be the best bat of the lot of them. they're not flash by any stretch, but they're not chris martin either.

TeWaio

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nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="609289" data-time="1472211897">Yep, outstanding player, great in any conditions against any team too, got overshadowed by McGrath, Wasim & in SA, by Ntini and Donald, but he was an utter legend & very much in the same class as them (a lot better than Ntini), only a much better batsman. I think he gets under-rated because a lot of the big ticket guys were blindingly fast (Donald, Aktar, Waqar, Lee) and he didn't look anything special.</blockquote>Yes and he was consistently good at everything.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="609287" data-time="1472211485">
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Sorry for only getting back to this point now, but it is amazing how quickly people forgot how good Pollock was. He took an absolute truckload of wickets at a better average, strike rate and, most impressively, economy rate than Imran despite playing in a far more batting friendly and aggressive era. 
 
He declined quite badly in last year or so of his international career, which I think has tainted his legacy (but not his stats).
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Countering that - Imran played international cricket for 20 years and his bowling undoubtedly declined. For a couple of years in the mid-80s he was injured and played as a specialist batsman.
 
And, of course, he played a lot of cricket on dustbowl subcontinent pitches.
 
Although the thread is about one day cricket, it's also notable how good a batsman Imran became. He averaged more than 50 across his last 50 tests with the bat. Pretty much Kallis-esque, but much sharper with the ball.

MN5

Pollock was an all time great. End of story. Some say he actually underachieved with the bat too which is a scary thought overall.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="609419" data-time="1472263260">
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Pollock was an all time great. End of story.
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That's not really the question, though. The question is whether he makes an all time best XI - under Sid's rules (which I have discounted a bit in some of my comments).
 
That's a pretty exacting standard - when you have people like Malcolm Marshall and Dennis Lillee barely rating a mention.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="609423" data-time="1472265143">
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That's not really the question, though. The question is whether he makes an all time best XI - under Sid's rules (which I have discounted a bit in some of my comments).
 
That's a pretty exacting standard - when you have people like Malcolm Marshall and Dennis Lillee barely rating a mention.
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Google Marshalls ODI record. Pretty ordinary compared to his test record and he'd be in many first XIs in the longest version of the game. As for Lillee perhaps he's just a bit old for many on here to remember ?

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="609438" data-time="1472268566">
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Google Marshalls ODI record. Pretty ordinary compared to his test record. As for Lillee perhaps he's just a bit old for many on here to remember ?
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Marshall probably never got to bowl against the tail in ODIs. :)
 
Lillee makes lots of "best of all time" teams, so picking from everyone's team for a "best ever" he'd go very close.
 
I'd agree with Sid that you need five specialist bowlers and you really have to pick four seamers and a spinner assuming an XI that can play on all surfaces.
 
The spinner pretty much has to be either Warnie or Murali, though statistically you can make a case for Saqlain, or if you wanted to bolster your batting you could play Afridi for his exceptional hitting power (but a pretty run of the mill bowler) - or a bit further down the pecking order Dan Vettori who could hold a bat.
 
For the four seamers, I'd make a list of the 20 best I've seen (which is pretty much all of them in ODI cricket). From that list, easily the best batsman is Imran (and he'd probably be in the top ten of the bowling list), so he would bat at seven in my team. 
 
I'd pick Wasim Akram because he's probably the best one day bowler I've seen and he has the added bonus of being a left armer.
 
I'd want one of the two West Indian giants - Garner or Ambrose - statistically you'd choose Garner, but I've got a feeling Ambrose was probably a better bowler - certainly much nastier, so leaving aside the "romance" of choosing the older guy, in a team playing for my life, I'd probably choose Amby.
 
So - one bowling spot left. An important question is whether Wasim, with a batting average of 16.5 is good enough to bat at 8 in an alltime team?
 
If he is, then you can pretty much go ahead and pick the next best bowler, for my money that would probably be Lillee. If he's not, then you're probably having a serious conversation about Pollock or Sir Richard Hadlee - Sir Paddles averaging 21 with bat and ball; Pollock 26 and 24.
 
The bowler who definitely doesn't make it from Sid's team - for me - is Kapil Dev.

Chris B.

Finishing this off...my best ever team is going to be:
 
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Vivian Richards
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers (wk)
Michael Bevan
Imran Khan (c)
Wasim Akram
Dennis Lillee
Shane Warne
Curtley Ambrose
 
In my final analysis, that bowling attack is far more vicious than Sid's initial offering. :)
 
I'm going to open up with the hostility of Lillee and Akram, with a quick change to Ambrose and Imran is that doesn't work - Warnie to bowl the middle overs and Ambrose's yorkers and Akram's reverse swing at the death.
 
Sehwag and Sachin are going to get things started faster than Sid's Amla and Sachin - if Sehwag gets out early then that's just going to give Sir Viv more time with a big modern bat in his hand to wreak havoc.
 
Ponting was a bit of a tricky selection - could have gone for plenty including Kohli or Crowe - but, Punter is worth his shot.
 
AB is my keeper - his capacity to achieve incredible run rates gets him in ahead of Sangakkara's reliability, Dhoni's capacity to measure a chase, Gilly's ability to smack the ball - and Brendon as the best keeper.
 
And, finally, Bevan is my statistical choice. I still don't know how he achieved it - but, he was so much better than anyone else - Dhoni excepted - at pacing a chasse to win - and not getting out while doing so. 
 
In the final analysis, the reason why my team will beat Sid's is that I've got more genuine bastards in my team - especially the bowlers. Where he's picked nice guys like Polly, Big Bird, Murali, and Kapil - I've gone for the arseholes - Lillee, Imran, Warnie and Amby.
 
It's going to be a terrible and unforeseen knockout!!!!

No Quarter

It would be interesting to see what the bowlers/batsmens averages were like if we had the "best two ODI XIs" playing each other over a number of games. Suddenly a 30 average in both disciplines would be a bloody good effort. I mean even the best batsmen would struggle against those lineups.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610221" data-time="1472377069">
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Finishing this off...my best ever team is going to be:
 
Virender Sehwag
Sachin Tendulkar
Vivian Richards
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers (wk)
Michael Bevan
Imran Khan (c)
Wasim Akram
Dennis Lillee
Shane Warne
Curtley Ambrose
 
In my final analysis, that bowling attack is far more vicious than Sid's initial offering. :)
 
I'm going to open up with the hostility of Lillee and Akram, with a quick change to Ambrose and Imran is that doesn't work - Warnie to bowl the middle overs and Ambrose's yorkers and Akram's reverse swing at the death.
 
Sehwag and Sachin are going to get things started faster than Sid's Amla and Sachin - if Sehwag gets out early then that's just going to give Sir Viv more time with a big modern bat in his hand to wreak havoc.
 
Ponting was a bit of a tricky selection - could have gone for plenty including Kohli or Crowe - but, Punter is worth his shot.
 
AB is my keeper - his capacity to achieve incredible run rates gets him in ahead of Sangakkara's reliability, Dhoni's capacity to measure a chase, Gilly's ability to smack the ball - and Brendon as the best keeper.
 
And, finally, Bevan is my statistical choice. I still don't know how he achieved it - but, he was so much better than anyone else - Dhoni excepted - at pacing a chasse to win - and not getting out while doing so. 
 
In the final analysis, the reason why my team will beat Sid's is that I've got more genuine bastards in my team - especially the bowlers. Where he's picked nice guys like Polly, Big Bird, Murali, and Kapil - I've gone for the arseholes - Lillee, Imran, Warnie and Amby.
 
It's going to be a terrible and unforeseen knockout!!!! :)
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Bevans failure to be a test great is a real mystery to me. Sure there were some outstanding batsmen in his era but his first class stats indicate he should have been a hell of a lot better than he was. I could easily see him averaging 50+ ( helped by lots of not outs but still....) after the top order did the damage......

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610677" data-time="1472511892">
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Bevans failure to be a test great is a real mystery to me. Sure there were some outstanding batsmen in his era but his first class stats indicate he should have been a hell of a lot better than he was. I could easily see him averaging 50+ ( helped by lots of not outs but still....) after the top order did the damage......
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Supposedly, they decided he had a weakness against the short ball. Mainly, I think he had a very poor 1997, so they dropped him, and by the time he was ready to come back they didn't need him. Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Waugh, Martyn, Waugh, Gilly - not much room for giving someone a second chance.
 
There were a bunch of Aussie batsman around that time that we probably would have given eye teeth for, who couldn't make their team - Slater, Elliott, Bevan, Blewett, Martin Love....

mariner4life

Brad Hodge
 
those guys must look at the current team with dismay

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="610705" data-time="1472516758">Brad Hodge 
those guys must look at the current team with dismay</blockquote>
Then, after a moment of wistfulness, shrug and dive back into the pools of IPL money they're getting as old fluffybunnies

The Silver Fern

All Time ODI XI