Black Caps Tour to Zimbabwe

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="601896" data-time="1469951174">
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Not weird at all. I'm not criticising him or suggesting in any way that he won't deserve his place in history for NZ. I'm just saying he suddenly seems to be over 32 and the end is possibly not that far away. It feels like he should only be halfway through his career but he's actually at least two thirds done. As opposed to the likes of Flem who it felt like was around forever and still retired slightly early for mine. In actual fact he played for NZ for 14 years. Taylor has only been playing tests since 2007 I think. And it actually feels like less, to me. The fact is, he could bow out of test cricket next year at 33 having played for only 10 years. That would feel very brief.
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So 70 tests feels "short" ?
 
Any sportsman in any sport could retire at any time.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="601902" data-time="1469953037">
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So 70 tests feels "short" ?
 
Any sportsman in any sport could retire at any time.
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Oh FFS it is perfectly clear what Shark meant.

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="601898" data-time="1469952079">
Is Flem from Canterbury?</blockquote>
 
What has this got to do with what Shark wrote?

Gunner

Struggling to dismiss the lower order again. 
They're being peppered with short stuff, but to their credit they're literally putting their bodies on the line. They'll have more bruises on their bodies than wickets they take in this series that's for sure. 
Were the fuck is Ish though, and why isn't he bowling?

mimic

Funnily enough, I was thinking that same thing shark. 
I think the difference is that Kane and Fleming started young. Both debuted at 20 iirc. Kane has been around for almost 6 years and he's still 25 (almost 26).. 
Taylor's been around for almost 9 years and debuted a lot later.. 23 going on 24. 
I think if you calculate the number of tests per year for the black caps, I think you will find that Taylor is basically almost the same as the big names such as Fleming, Kane and BMac.. 
Even the late MD Crowe debuted at 19. He played 13 years for his 77 tests. 
Lack of tests per year and him starting late are key reasons for this. Also it didn't help with captain-gate making him miss more tests..

mimic

Sean Williams scores his maiden test century.. the fastest test ton by a Zimbabwean.. 
He is batting low in the order cos I don't think he was fielding when the black caps were batting as he was too sick and struggled to breath.. 
That's probably why he is dealing in boundaries..

shark

Oops sorry Crazy Horse I think I somehow gave you a negative vote or something when I was actually trying to quote you! Stupid app (or stupid user!) 
But yes you're quite correct. I could have easily used Vettori as another example of a guy who seemed to play for 50 years. But I used Flem. Next time I won't use a correct example if that person happens to also be a Cantabrian, because I wouldn't want to risk someone like Mariner casting petty aspersions.

shark

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="601907" data-time="1469954202">
Oh FFS it is perfectly clear what Shark meant.</blockquote>
 
Yeah, reckon. Cheers.

shark

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mimic" data-cid="601922" data-time="1469957719">
Funnily enough, I was thinking that same thing shark. 
I think the difference is that Kane and Fleming started young. Both debuted at 20 iirc. Kane has been around for almost 6 years and he's still 25 (almost 26).. 
Taylor's been around for almost 9 years and debuted a lot later.. 23 going on 24. 
I think if you calculate the number of tests per year for the black caps, I think you will find that Taylor is basically almost the same as the big names such as Fleming, Kane and BMac.. 
Even the late MD Crowe debuted at 19. He played 13 years for his 77 tests. 
Lack of tests per year and him starting late are key reasons for this. Also it didn't help with captain-gate making him miss more tests..</blockquote>
 
Yep spot on re the late-ish debut and thats why his career thus far feels a little brief relative to his age. 
I'd love to see Taylor play on for another five years. But the reality is, he'll probably play another two or three. It seems these days that the likes of Australian and Indian batsmen often play until nearly 40 but our guys typically bow out of test cricket no later than 35.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="601934" data-time="1469962353">
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Yep spot on re the late-ish debut and thats why his career thus far feels a little brief relative to his age. 
I'd love to see Taylor play on for another five years. But the reality is, he'll probably play another two or three. It seems these days that the likes of Australian and Indian batsmen often play until nearly 40 but our guys typically bow out of test cricket no later than 35.
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That might change if Hesson hangs around and we continue in this golden era. I think a lot of the Flem generation left a bit early because the Black Caps was a fairly negative environment.
 
There have been a lot of assholes involved in the coaching and administration (and, I think, playing) of NZ cricket over the years and I think this has reflected in our results. Reading many cricket books there are a lot of people with plenty to be embarrassed about (going back to the 1980s).
 
Despite Hesson's unfortunate start, he seems to established (with McCullum's help) a properly professional environment that somewhat reflects the way the ABs do things. Kane Williamson gives the distinct impression that he just wants to get on with quietly and modestly playing cricket, so I'm hopeful that the apparent culture change will be a more or less permanent thing.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="601934" data-time="1469962353">
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Yep spot on re the late-ish debut and thats why his career thus far feels a little brief relative to his age. 
I'd love to see Taylor play on for another five years. But the reality is, he'll probably play another two or three. It seems these days that the likes of Australian and Indian batsmen often play until nearly 40 but our guys typically bow out of test cricket no later than 35.
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Yeah but we won't know this until it happens.
 
Good predictable enough win for the team, Wagner possibly hard done by missing MOM to Taylor.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="601932" data-time="1469961959">
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Oops sorry Crazy Horse I think I somehow gave you a negative vote or something when I was actually trying to quote you! Stupid app (or stupid user!) 
But yes you're quite correct. I could have easily used Vettori as another example of a guy who seemed to play for 50 years. But I used Flem. Next time I won't use a correct example if that person happens to also be a Cantabrian, because I wouldn't want to risk someone like Mariner casting petty aspersions.
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It's when you contrast him with a guy like Alistair Cook. They both made their international debuts on the same day 1 March 2006. Cook has played 131 tests for 10446 runs and Taylor has played 69 tests for 5232. Basically half and that is all down to scheduling. I don't think at this stage of his career Cook is that much better than Taylor if at all, but when you have twice as many opportunities to play big innings your career is going to look much better.

Provincial Stalwart

There's no shortgage of test cricket coming up though - another 13 tests by March 31. We're also playing next week, 2 in South Africa, 3 in India and then seven in the home summer - 2 x Pakistan, 2 x Bangles, 3 x South Africa.
 
Before you can blink Rossco should be up past 80 tests and could be into second on the all time runs list behind Flem.

Smudge

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="601974" data-time="1470004254">
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That might change if Hesson hangs around and we continue in this golden era. 
 
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He's re-signed past the 2019 World Cup.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/1019731.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/1019731.html</a>

SynicBast

Okay I'm going to call it. Hesson has been the best coaching/administration change to happen to the Black Caps in my memory. I love the ethos and temperament of this group of players. Just as the ABs started their current era with the November 2004 French test, this side started the day after the capitulation in South Africa. 

It's been fun to watch them and the emotional investment is back, with a vengeance.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SynicBast" data-cid="602027" data-time="1470009887">
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Okay I'm going to call it. Hesson has been the best coaching/administration change to happen to the Black Caps in my memory. I love the ethos and temperament of this group of players. Just as the ABs started their current era with the November 2004 French test, this side started the day after the capitulation in South Africa. 

It's been fun to watch them and the emotional investment is back, with a vengeance.
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I'll go the opposite way I think he is definately good and above average, but he is certainly overrated - but the tide was turning before Hesson/McCullum. Vettori who was a very pedestrian captain went and we got flooded with a bunch of test quality bowling options that we knew were coming for a while. Plus I think Kane much like Martin Crowe/Richard Hadlee has a tremendous influence on the others - well before he was skipper. When you have a world class competitor in the sheds its harder to play silly buggers.
 
Rixon's overhaul was much more dramatic. Trist struck me as better than Hesson too - but he had the worst deck to play with. Aberhart/Jeff Crowe was my favourite because they were smart enough to compliment Fleming and let them do their thing. That era was still the most consistent quality cricket we have played in my life outside of 85/6.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="602032" data-time="1470010542">
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I'll go the opposite way I think he is definately good and above average, but he is certainly overrated - but the tide was turning before Hesson/McCullum. Vettori who was a very pedestrian captain went and we got flooded with a bunch of test quality bowling options that we knew were coming for a while. Plus I think Kane much like Martin Crowe/Richard Hadlee has a tremendous influence on the others - well before he was skipper. When you have a world class competitor in the sheds its harder to play silly buggers.
 
Rixon's overhaul was much more dramatic. Trist struck me as better than Hesson too - but he had the worst deck to play with. Aberhart/Jeff Crowe was my favourite because they were smart enough to compliment Fleming and let them do their thing. That era was still the most consistent quality cricket we have played in my life outside of 85/6.
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There was still a heap of backroom bullshit going on with Buchanan and Littlejohn wanting to run things completely different to Wright - and before that Vettori was doing everything except drive the bus, and before that was Bracewell who seemed to me to be a mini-GlennTurner, and around that time was Justin Vaughan.
 
I think you're completely wrong about it being hard to play silly buggers in the sheds when you have a world class competitor there. Hadlee and Crowe were both significant players of silly buggers in the sheds. The Crowe/Rutherford/Howarth period involved some of the most c*ntish behaviour on record.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="602053" data-time="1470014347">
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There was still a heap of backroom bullshit going on with Buchanan and Littlejohn wanting to run things completely different to Wright - and before that Vettori was doing everything except drive the bus, and before that was Bracewell who seemed to me to be a mini-GlennTurner, and around that time was Justin Vaughan.
 
I think you're completely wrong about it being hard to play silly buggers in the sheds when you have a world class competitor there. Hadlee and Crowe were both significant players of silly buggers in the sheds. The Crowe/Rutherford/Howarth period involved some of the most c*ntish behaviour on record.
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Is there a good biography that exposes that era?

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="602061" data-time="1470016061">
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Is there a good biography that exposes that era?
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Whose side of the story do you want? :)
 
Rutherford's A hell of a way to make a living
 
Howarth's Stirred but not Shaken
 
In some ways you have to read quite a few to build up a picture (there's no shortage of them - Crowe, Greatbatch, Pringle, Cairns, Morrison...), and it's quite a while since I read any of them - but, I seem to recall Rutherford's and Parore's both being pretty frank and interesting.
 
Edit: I've just had a quick flick through Parore's "The wicked keeper" and it's not a bad place to start.

MN5

Coney and Hadlee had a major and public falling out as well and didn't even speak to eachother which must have made it tough given the chances of them batting together would have been high as they were 6 and 7/8 respectively.
 
That car thing caused a huge shitfight in the team with some voting for Hadlee to keep it and others wanting it sold and divided up. I can see both sides of the argument pretty well, even Paddles himself conceded it would be a tough prize for Smith as keeper or a bowler like Chatfield to win. I think he argued he'd won a few before, sold them and divided the pool so felt within his right to keep a car for once ( I might be wrong on these particulars )
 
I bring that up because the team still did very well in this period obviously but so much was on the back of Hadlee and M Crowe with contributions here and there from others.....

The Silver Fern

Black Caps Tour to Zimbabwe