All Blacks vs Wales Test #2

KiwiMurph

I think Crotty is good squad guy as he is dependable and solid which is important - but he does look to lack that extra gear to a long term starter. He's got a placeholder feel about him.

hurricane

On Crotty, There was one tackle he made in the 2nd half where he stopped the guy from making the advantage line and drove him back. And I remember thinking if our "worst" player on the field can make contributions like this then we have this match. And then 5 minutes later the flood gates opened. He contributed to the victory. I also thought Fekitoa did well. Not amazing but ok.

gt12

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="589626" data-time="1466294682">
<div>
I look more at individual players than the teams they play for, although I do like the way the Crusaders play, but I could say the same about the Highlanders, Canes and sometimes the Chiefs.
 
If my reactions sometimes seems biased towards certain players, it has more to do with the (negative) exaggeration with which some Ferners comment on these players. Like "x" is shit, or "y" is useless or doesn't do more than "sweet fuck all". Comments like that annoy me. If players were shit and useless they wouldn't be selected in the ABs. Some are still developing in their roles. Some are better than others in particular aspects of their game, but that doesn't make the others shit. If I called people Barrett haters on the Fern, it was because of comments like these, not because they criticised aspects of his game.
 
This forum is so dominated by people from the Northern half of the North Island that I also sometimes feel like expressing a different, less Chiefs or Blues biased opinion.
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</blockquote>
 
In other words, you make an effort to be biased too? That sounds very debate(y), rather than very dialectic(y). 
 
Anyway, I don't really see people being biased against players based on their Super sides or backgrounds. I see plenty of making fun of each other about posters and who they support, but little actual bias for provincial sides.
 
Anyway, on Crotty - he's clearly word class, and he's clearly AB standard (few here argue with that, so what's the point of needing to recognize it in every post?) So, the question being debated is whether he the best option at 2nd five or center or should stay when all other options are fit? I'm not sure why that discussion is somehow not exactly what we are all here for?
 
He'd stay in my final 4, even when SBW comes back, but in the same role as he's always played. I think he is best at 13 where his defensive reads can be most effective and where his decisions about passing or recycling are vital. He does do plenty of off the ball work which I like too (e.g. breakdown arrivals, where he lead backs in the first test, and probably lead again last night). However, I'm not in love with him at 2nd because I don't think he straightens the attack enough for us there. Sadly, he doesn't have huge bench impact, so a player like Taimanivalu or Fekitoa might be able to put him out of the side if he doesn't start. From next year, there are a number of young players coming through too (R. Ioane) so Crotty has to take his starting chances well. Moala still has time too.
 
Also talking midfield, watching the game I thought Taimanivalu looked pretty out of his depth - he wasn't terrible (except for that fucking ridiculous kick, which Fozzie mentioned later) but I also didn't think that looked like he was really going well either. As it was the first time I watched a game at the pub, and had a few beforehand, it might be me - I'll have to re-watch :)

Rancid Schnitzel

BB played like that with the flu? Imagine how good he'd be at 100% healthy! 
In all seriousness, I have concerns about his clearing kicking and his control in a tight game. On the other hand, such is his attacking ability, there may not be many tight games when he's on the park. Bit of an enigma that boy. 
I agree that this haters thing is childish. And that doesn't just apply to BB.

taniwharugby

yep, plenty of precious folk about, I mean the word haters has popped up a bunch of times, yet I dont recall one person ever saying he should be dropped, apparently if you dont worship him, and have the gall to query parts of his game, you are a hater...kinda like when my kids ask for something, I say just wait or in a minute, they take that as no, only a yes or no for them, no other options.
 
If anything, it is more a frustration that his general kicking and controlling of games isnt as good as we would like (or expect?) whereby he would be starting all the time and then just imagine it!

Rancid Schnitzel

Just on Crotty. I think he's the perfect foil if he has a really good 13 outside him or 12 inside. He makes very few errors and is solid as a rock. It would be great to see SBW and him together. 
Fekitoa is headless chicken boy. Him and Crotty together are pretty pants.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="589626" data-time="1466294682">
This forum is so dominated by people from the Northern half of the North Island</blockquote>
 
Strangely rather reflective of the New Zealamd population ...

booboo

Were you about during the Cantab dominated years SG?

taniwharugby

on the subject of HaterZ, the way our mid-field is going right now, I dont expect the HaterZ will be too pleased that SBW is likely to be a key figure in our mid-fields longterm plans, and it doesnt appear he will suffer from being leap-frogged by playing 7s.

nostrildamus

Um yeah we seem to have enough options at 12 and much fewer at 13-sound familiar?
Any good 13s likely to come back in next few years?
Gotta think SBW and then perhaps Ngatai might have inside running at 12.
 
Would have thought they bring Lima back for next week. BB could be the longterm 10 but not yet (and currently with flu?) and they really need 4 quality 10s by the next RWC (but Wales are too strong to check out/train the next 4th 10 who could be Damian McKenzie..)
 
Very happy Dagg is coming back into form/confidence-is he a little bit slower than before though?
 
NB Someone earlier said Kahui was solid but lacked x-factor as AB winger. Would you like to review videos of his tries on the wing for the ABs? I thought there was at least one and probably two that were sensational.
 
PS Congrats to Wales who are still very competitive. I thought they would be severely hindered in attack without North, he was huge in all senses of the word in test 1-best I think I have seen him play against the ABs.

pukunui

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="589626" data-time="1466294682">
<div>
I look more at individual players than the teams they play for, although I do like the way the Crusaders play, but I could say the same about the Highlanders, Canes and sometimes the Chiefs.
 
If my reactions sometimes seems biased towards certain players, it has more to do with the (negative) exaggeration with which some Ferners comment on these players. Like "x" is shit, or "y" is useless or doesn't do more than "sweet fuck all". Comments like that annoy me. If players were shit and useless they wouldn't be selected in the ABs. Some are still developing in their roles. Some are better than others in particular aspects of their game, but that doesn't make the others shit. If I called people Barrett haters on the Fern, it was because of comments like these, not because they criticised aspects of his game.
 
This forum is so dominated by people from the Northern half of the North Island that I also sometimes feel like expressing a different, less Chiefs or Blues biased opinion.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I would say Im in a similar position being an AB supporter first and foremost and then supporting all NZ Super teams I often find myself arguing on the opposite side to popular opinion on certain thing to try and get the consensus back toward the centre of whatever topic as this board is heavily weighted towards certain regions now. Think this often makes it appear that my opinion is further to one side than it actually is or as some might put it being a 'fluffer' which is equally as childish as calling someone a 'hater'. Good examples recently have been Savea vs Cane, Savea in general, Barrett vs Cruden vs Lima and the D Mac for AB starting 15 hype earlier in the year.
I guess that's the hard thing with forums where posts are so short and can be read 10 different ways. People seem more extreme in their opinions. Having said that, opinions can still be wrong and those wrong opinions sometimes need to be pointed out :ireful:
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gt12" data-cid="589642" data-time="1466299648">
<div>
In other words, you make an effort to be biased too? That sounds very debate(y), rather than very dialectic(y). 
 
Anyway, I don't really see people being biased against players based on their Super sides or backgrounds. I see plenty of making fun of each other about posters and who they support, but little actual bias for provincial sides.
 
Anyway, on Crotty - he's clearly word class, and he's clearly AB standard (few here argue with that, so what's the point of needing to recognize it in every post?) So, the question being debated is whether he the best option at 2nd five or center or should stay when all other options are fit? I'm not sure why that discussion is somehow not exactly what we are all here for?
 
He'd stay in my final 4, even when SBW comes back, but in the same role as he's always played. I think he is best at 13 where his defensive reads can be most effective and where his decisions about passing or recycling are vital. He does do plenty of off the ball work which I like too (e.g. breakdown arrivals, where he lead backs in the first test, and probably lead again last night). However, I'm not in love with him at 2nd because I don't think he straightens the attack enough for us there. Sadly, he doesn't have huge bench impact, so a player like Taimanivalu or Fekitoa might be able to put him out of the side if he doesn't start. From next year, there are a number of young players coming through too (R. Ioane) so Crotty has to take his starting chances well. Moala still has time too.
 
Also talking midfield, watching the game I thought Taimanivalu looked pretty out of his depth - he wasn't terrible (except for that fucking ridiculous kick, which Fozzie mentioned later) but I also didn't think that looked like he was really going well either. As it was the first time I watched a game at the pub, and had a few beforehand, it might be me - I'll have to re-watch :)
</div>
</blockquote>
 
It is definitely noticeable IMO. Seems to have increased in the last year or two. At least there aren't too many Aussies or South Africans around to stink the place up :fishing:
 
 
On Crotty. I don't think journeymen is really fair. He is solid but not spectacular. But solid is what we need right now. Especially if he is paired with Fekitoa who tries to be spectacular but i wouldn't describe as solid.
Ngatai appear to have a bit of both so hopefully he doesn't do a Kahui/Toeava and miss more games through injury than he plays.

taniwharugby

plenty of people have provincial bias, and why wouldnt they, similar to how we have NZ bias over players from other countries because we see more of our players.
 
BUt while most are able to see past thier provincial bias when it comes to the ABs, wee know there are a few who simply cannot...kinda what keeps this place ticking, be god awful boring if everyone agreed all the time, although there are some who are incredibly precious and OTT in thier praise/defence of thier side/players
 
Remove some of our finest ever players and now we see players jockeying for positions, of course someone feels thier man is better than someone elses....

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="589626" data-time="1466294682">
<div>
I look more at individual players than the teams they play for, although I do like the way the Crusaders play, but I could say the same about the Highlanders, Canes and sometimes the Chiefs.
 
If my reactions sometimes seems biased towards certain players, it has more to do with the (negative) exaggeration with which some Ferners comment on these players. Like "x" is shit, or "y" is useless or doesn't do more than "sweet fuck all". Comments like that annoy me. If players were shit and useless they wouldn't be selected in the ABs. Some are still developing in their roles. Some are better than others in particular aspects of their game, but that doesn't make the others shit. If I called people Barrett haters on the Fern, it was because of comments like these, not because they criticised aspects of his game.
 
This forum is so dominated by people from the Northern half of the North Island that I also sometimes feel like expressing a different, less Chiefs or Blues biased opinion.
</div>
</blockquote>
I think you're a Crusaders fan, and you should just own it, there's no shame in that (well IMHO there is but each to their own). You're also a big Crotty fan (2 weeks voting for him for MoTM) but that's fine too, others are less of a fan.
 
But, fans don't like certain players for a myriad of reasons, it doesn't mean that it's franchise or province thing. I've never liked Crockett as a loosehead prop but I'm a huge fan Moody and they're both Cantabs, and I completely disliked Ben Franks when he was playing for HB. 
 
I don't even think that last sentence is true, there's lots of Canes fans pumping for their players (Kid n Play Savea, BB etc) and quite a number of Crusaders and Highlanders too going by Sopoaga's support - the Crusaders fans just seem to be less vocal these days ... no idea why :whistle: .

Cantab79

Without wanting to start a shitfight, this forum does have somewhat of an anti-CRFU/anti-Crusaders bias. Though to be honest I think fans of these teams should wear this as a badge of honour. No one dislikes crappy teams. No-one dislikes battlers. People dislike the Crusaders because historically they've been the most successful NZ team, they're the most consistent NZ team and they're seen as been favoured at the All Black selection table. People dislike Canterbury because they've won seven provincial titles in eight seasons.

Tim

Watched about 56 mins of the replay. Not sure why people are criticising Kaino. He's by far the best defensive player on the team. Very high workrate too. Has he played more physically dominant games? Yes, but so has everyone else in the team.
 
Crotty may be a journeyman, but he's the only AB player in this series who has looked like he can play 13 at this level. I really don't like Fekitoa at 13. Gt12 is right about Tamanivalu.
 
Cane started off very well, then faded early. Good player, but can do better.

gt12

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pukunui" data-cid="589658" data-time="1466302926">
<div>
I would say Im in a similar position being an AB supporter first and foremost and then supporting all NZ Super teams I often find myself arguing on the opposite side to popular opinion on certain thing to try and get the consensus back toward the centre of whatever topic as this board is heavily weighted towards certain regions now. Think this often makes it appear that my opinion is further to one side than it actually is or as some might put it being a 'fluffer' which is equally as childish as calling someone a 'hater'. Good examples recently have been Savea vs Cane, Savea in general, Barrett vs Cruden vs Lima and the D Mac for AB starting 15 hype earlier in the year.
I guess that's the hard thing with forums where posts are so short and can be read 10 different ways. People seem more extreme in their opinions. Having said that, opinions can still be wrong and those wrong opinions sometimes need to be pointed out :ireful:
 
 
 
It is definitely noticeable IMO. Seems to have increased in the last year or two. At least there aren't too many Aussies or South Africans around to stink the place up :fishing:
 
 
On Crotty. I don't think journeymen is really fair. He is solid but not spectacular. But solid is what we need right now. Especially if he is paired with Fekitoa who tries to be spectacular but i wouldn't describe as solid.
Ngatai appear to have a bit of both so hopefully he doesn't do a Kahui/Toeava and miss more games through injury than he plays.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I think almost everyone here is an AB supporter first and foremost. I am, and although I'm also die-hard Chiefs, I'd trade us going back to being the whipping boys forever if it meant that the ABs never lost a test. Show me posters who wouldn't choose that, and I'll show you the..
 
few posters who appear to let their provincial situation influence them. And, most of them are pretty well spread out and most of their attacks get put down pretty quickly. This discussion seems to be about Stargazer getting called on his comments about a lack of support for a player, and using 'provincial bias' as his counter argument to justify his position, which is great irony. People aren't against Barrett (at all, that I can see), and certainly not arguing against his skills and readiness for the 10 jersey full-time because of where he is from. I'm sure that no poster is against Crotty for the full-time 12 jersey based on the fact that he is from Canterbury. That's absurd. 
 
I agree that we have had a few Red Herring and Ad Hominem attacks recently on posters - particularly regarding Cane and Savea (both brilliant, time will tell). The rest of your examples though I'm not convinced at all - I see really reasonable debate about the strengths and weaknesses of Cruden, Barrett, and Lima. I'm not even sure what you are talking about with Savea (Julian?) or Dmac. For example, I don't think the big Chiefs voices were going crazy for him? (e.g., Unco, Bovidae, Crucial, Nepia, M4L) so who is bringing this 'provincial argument in any serious fashion? I don't remember many calling Chiefs fans for him to replace Barrett on the bench? 
 
BTW - I don't think I've ever once thought you were fluffing or posting with any intention of taking a side as a fluffer.
 
And I wouldn't have thought that of Stargazer until he specifically tried to explain that his ideas are somehow more objective as provincial loyalties prevent posters from legitimately discussing the benefits of players, and I call bullshit on that. I'm fucking insulted if that is a serious argument being put forward.
 
Personally I think the balance isn't bad - there is some shit thrown about provinces, and there is some shit about Canterbury, Crusaders, and Chiefs (since we started winning), but I don't think it gets taken seriously by those discussing the footy and players.

Stargazer

My only provincial bias is in the Mitre 10 Cup where I support the Magpies.
 
Funny to see people think I'm a Crusaders fan because I appreciate Crotty's game after multiple posts in which I defended (for lack of a better word) Barrett. Also funny that you took the effort of checking who I voted for, Nepia; maybe you've also noticed that in the first poll I voted for Cruden (among others)?
 
Even funnier that you think you know better who I support than me. But whatever floats your boat. If that's what you like to think, I don't care. As you say, there is nothing to be ashamed of if people support the Crusaders, or the Blues, or the Highlanders, or the Chiefs, or the Canes.
 
<img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/xT77Y8eeEhBA8NQwLK/giphy.gif" alt="giphy.gif">

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Cantab79" data-cid="589668" data-time="1466305568">
Without wanting to start a shitfight, this forum does have somewhat of an anti-CRFU/anti-Crusaders bias.</blockquote>
 
There was a reason for that ...

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="589675" data-time="1466306752">
There was a reason for that ...</blockquote>
 
... and not so much to do with the players or teams.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Cantab79" data-cid="589668" data-time="1466305568">
Without wanting to start a shitfight, this forum does have somewhat of an anti-CRFU/anti-Crusaders bias. Though to be honest I think fans of these teams should wear this as a badge of honour. No one dislikes crappy teams. No-one dislikes battlers. People dislike the Crusaders because historically they've been the most successful NZ team, they're the most consistent NZ team and they're seen as been favoured at the All Black selection table. People dislike Canterbury because they've won seven provincial titles in eight seasons.</blockquote>
 
There's also a fair few who have a victim mentality from that region . 
No one cares about battlers , when it comes to opposition teams you either don't give a shit about them because you regularly beat the or you hate them because they are more successful than your team . Being hated is evidence of your success , the Aussies didn't call out Hadlees a piston wristed gibbon because he was a rubbish cricketer.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs Wales Test #2