RIP Muhammad Ali

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="585371" data-time="1465250594">
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Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.
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Yeah Ali's ideas on separate relations came through in the Parkinson interviews and Parkinson did bloody well confronting him on them.
 
Certainly in 2016 Ali's message, then, on this topic doesn't really hold logical water. It's an anathema to what we know is better, i.e. skin colour counts for zip, and cross cultural, (not cross racial IMO) integration strengths and benefits our species.
 
I thought similar to you Hydro when watching Ali's protestations. However, rightly or wrongly, I also thought that in the context of the apartheid (it was though) in the US at the time perhaps emotions and feelings were too raw from the black community to be advocating reconciliation. Perhaps it takes time to see through the mist when a group of people have treated you like shit for so long and finally you get some retreat from them. Is it too early in the process to embrace forgiveness, reconciliation and common relations?
 
Dunno
 
Mandela went from militant to peacemaker over many many years. i wonder if Ali latterly changed his vehement views
 
That's why it's a bit of a shame we never heard from him over the last 20 years.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="585371" data-time="1465250594">
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Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.
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Ali spoke at a time when you could speak freely without stupid persecution for saying racist things. All his gorilla, bear taunts now would have him dragged over the coals by keyboard warriors globally. If I had his upbringing, I would have been as racist as hell too.
 
He was one of the first people to get in people's faces, stick it to white man, and proclaim the opposite, all whilst having a global following of basically every single black man, and a huge %age of white guys. The political views, the boxing, the show boating - the man was inspirational to many. Was he perfect, of course not, did he have the single most impact of any sportsperson ever, undoubtedly.
 
I don't think his impact on the world can be over-estimated.

Tim

Would you have been racist to over black people?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585420" data-time="1465264500">
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Ali spoke at a time when you could speak freely without stupid persecution for saying racist things. All his gorilla, bear taunts now would have him dragged over the coals by keyboard warriors globally. If I had his upbringing, I would have been as racist as hell too.
 
He was one of the first people to get in people's faces, stick it to white man, and proclaim the opposite, all whilst having a global following of basically every single black man, and a huge %age of white guys. The political views, the boxing, the show boating - the man was inspirational to many. Was he perfect, of course not, did he have the single most impact of any sportsperson ever, undoubtedly.
 
I don't think his impact on the world can be over-estimated.
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It wasn't like black people could take the position of conciliation - they didn't have a legal leg to stand on in a lot of cases.
 
Yeah some of his shit was crazy. No interracial relationships was a doozy, but we can't frame that discussion in the context of our time. I don't agree with everything he said. And a lot of it WAS militant.
 
Ali's extremism was probably a direct attempt at putting a stake in the ground and making his oppressors come to him. There was no point starting in the middle ground, because any compromise would move him back toward the status quo.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="585423" data-time="1465265189">
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Would you have been racist to over black people?
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By over, I think you mean other?
 
I don't know, I'm not him. But he was brought in to and raised in a world where people were identified, classed and given opportunities by race. So realistically, you'd have to say yes.

Cookie

He was a racist bully who definitely had a mean streak yay wide. Very much a flawed hero - it's what makes his character so interesting. He did moderate his views over time, he also became a more tolerant Sunni Muslim. As his quote goes - a man who has the same thoughts at 50 as when he was 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.

MN5

I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.

taniwharugby

I worked with a women, who's dad was the one that sparred with Ali when he was in NZ, when he just asked if anyone in the crowd wanted to spar with him.
 
She said he always talked of it as the single greatest moment of his life, above that of his numerous children.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585574" data-time="1465341450">
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I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.
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He taunted George about waving the american flag ,Foreman used to carry it into the ring ,
 
Ali called it it the white mans flag , Ali called him an Uncle Tom , said he bent over to the White Man , 
 
 during the fight , he was saying to him , over and over , wheres your flag George wheres your flag ?

Cookie

He sure had a talent for climbing into people's heads. 
Ain't Karma a bitch though. Despite the humiliation of defeat Foreman ended up happier, healthier and considerably wealthier. Made millions from his lean mean grilling machine. My wife met him once (no not like that!) said he was massively relaxed, laid back happy guy - but had huge gravitas / charisma. When he spoke everyone listened. 
And this was when he was selling his grilling machine! I can only imagine what it must have been like to meet Ali or Tyson in their prime.

kiwiinmelb

They reckon Joe Frazier never really forgave Ali for the taunting he gave him , 
 
Joe didnt have Alis gift of the gab , and Ali tended to make fun of him as being a bit simple , Joe took it personally , and they say took it personally to his grave , 
 
Here is Joes message on his cell phone years later in his 60s , still holding a grudge, and pretty much taking the mickey out of Alis state of health ,

nostrildamus

He pulled out of school early didn't he?
As for that sandwich maker, I vaguely recall Foreman was the second person asked to endorse it but he ended up making from that than from his boxing! I have one and it is damn fine. Don't think it will get me in the ring at 45-50 or so like Foreman did.

Cookie

Although I imagine a lot of youngsters wonder why a chubby old dude is selling a "lean" griller!

kiwiinmelb

The funny thing with that griller , george had nothing to do with it initially , 
 
the company approached him asking him to help market it for them , he said ok , and made millions from it , 
 
they initially approached Hulk Hogan and he didnt return their call ,thought it sounded like a waste of time, he jokingly says the biggest mistake of his career

Cookie

That's pretty funny. I think Foreman only got involved because he thought he'd be able to raise a few dollars for his church.

MN5

Whenever a famous boxer dies I always Wikipedia a few of them out of habit.
 
Sounds like Sonny Liston had an "interesting" life shrouded in mystery. Poor bugger didn't even know how old he was ! As I mentioned Foreman losing to Ali was great for him as a person, same can't be said for SL.

dogmeat

Ali wasn't a saint - far from it. He said some really dumb shit at times as he said himself - I said I was the greatest, not the brightest.
 
He was reviled by many when he made his anti-war stance but as public support for the war waned his mana grew and then came the fights of the 70's
 
I remember rushing home from school in 6th form to watch the Thrilla live with a bunch of mates. My mother had a cash account with the local pub who would eliver any amount of booze to 16 yr olds no questions asked as long as they had the cash ready. Great party.
 
He said some disgusting things about Frazier, but he said much the same to and about almost every opponent. Not excusing it or some of the othger dumb shit but I do think Ali did just see it as trash talking.
 
Certainly Frazier was bitter for a very long time but it was more complicated maybe than some make out. Frazier was also bitter because he reckoned he beat Ali more than once and because he didn't have the rep or money Ali did
 
From Chicago Tribune
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Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."
During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.
"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."
Frazier embraced the apology.
"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."
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and the Guardian
 
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Frazier: "He shook me in Manila. We were gladiators. I didn't ask no favours of him and he didn't ask none of me. I don't like him but I gotta say, in the ring, he was a man. In Manila, I hit him punches, those punches, they'd have knocked a building down. And he took 'em. He took 'em and he came back, and I got to respect that part of the man. But I sent him home worse than he came. He was the one who spoke about being nearly dead in Manila, not me."
Ali: "We went to Manila as champions, Joe and me, and we came back as old men."
Ali: "I heard somethin' once. When somebody asked a marathon runner what goes through his mind in the last mile or two, he said that you ask yourself, 'Why am I doin' this?' You get so tired. It takes so much out of you mentally. It changes you. It makes you go a little insane. I was thinkin' that at the end. Why am I doin' this? What am I doin' in here against this beast of a man? It's so painful. I must be crazy. I always bring out the best in the men I fight, but Joe Frazier, I'll tell the world right now, brings out the best in me. I'm gonna tell ya, that's one helluva man, and God bless him."
Frazier: "If we were twins in the belly of our mama, I'd reach over and strangle him."
Frazier: "Ali would not be Ali unless I had come along. Him and me had three fights," Joe says. "He won two of them, I won one. But if you look at him now, you can see who won them all. Me!"
Frazier: "Why did he say the things he said? Only he has the answer to that, and I would prefer not to comment on it. He just seemed to have a bad word for everybody. It was just foolishness."
Ali: "I'm sorry Joe Frazier is mad at me. I'm sorry I hurt him. Joe Frazier is a good man, and I couldn't have done what I did without him, and he couldn't have done what he did without me. And if God ever calls me to a holy war, I want Joe Frazier fighting beside me. "
Frazier: "I hated Ali. God might not like me talking that way, but it's in my heart. I know things would have been different for me if he hadn't been around. I'd have gotten a lot more respect. I'd have had more appreciation from my own kind. Twenty years I've been fighting Ali, and I still want to take him apart piece by piece and send him back to Jesus."
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Frazier: "The Butterfly and me have been through some ups and downs and there have been lots of emotions, many of them bad. But I have forgiven him. I had to. You cannot hold out for ever. There were bruises in my heart because of the words he used. I spent years dreaming about him and wanting to hurt him. But you have got to throw that stick out of the window. Do not forget that we needed each other, to produce some of the greatest fights of all time."
Ali: "I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologise for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight."
 
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kiwiinmelb

One thing that very rarely gets mentioned , Ali had a huge motivation for the dollar , 
 
All that trash talking was part of the show ,he was the best self promoter in the business 
 
Much like Mayweather in recent times , and on a smaller more local stage Mundine , 
 
They all divided the public , its interesting in the fight game , how public enemy number 1 quite often gets paid the most

Cookie

This is a great little story showing the more considerate side of Ali. 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015</a>

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="585867" data-time="1465447880">
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One thing that very rarely gets mentioned , Ali had a huge motivation for the dollar , 
 
All that trash talking was part of the show ,he was the best self promoter in the business 
 
Much like Mayweather in recent times , and on a smaller more local stage Mundine , 
 
They all divided the public , its interesting in the fight game , how public enemy number 1 quite often gets paid the most 
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I'll freely admit to not being much of a tennis fan but the principle is the same ie man on man or woman on woman......save for John McEnroe and to a lesser extent Andre Agassi I can't think of any real self promoters ( obviously hot female players help hugely ) but the guys who are always number one and make a fucken shitload are generally bland and boring as batshit ( Sampras, Jokovich, Federer etc )
 
What I'm getting at is why does one sport ( Boxing ) need it's good and bad guys but another ( Tennis ) not ?

The Silver Fern

RIP Muhammad Ali