RIP Muhammad Ali

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585287" data-time="1465181804">
<div>
Well yeah but that's not what I'm debating, no denying he was the best raconteur in boxing ( if not all sports ) history.
</div>
</blockquote>
No not just raconteur, he could really outpsyche boxers.
If all you are interested in is how tough he was, he wasn't built like those brick shithouses but he would take a huge amount of punishment in some of those fights. But personally I don't judge a boxer's greatness in terms of how many punches they can take.

kiwiinmelb

My earlier point wasn't so much about the physical ability to take punishment and comparing him to others , but more the mental strength to go through the pain barrier and the damage he may have done to himself trying to prove a point . 
its something we can't measure anyway ,
 
but Ali would practice taking punishment , by getting fresh sparring partners to hit him over and over when he was past the point of exhaustion ,. 
Those close to him suspect it was in those sparring sessions that the damage was done to his health , not so much the fights themselves.

Cookie

He probably thought he was invincible at the time. A lot of boxers need protecting from themselves for sure and I think Nevada State Athletic Commission have much to answer for in letting the Larry Holmes fight go ahead. It was already apparent that Ali was not right. Must have been horrible for Holmes too, having to fight one of his heroes in such a state.

kiwiinmelb

Yeah by that stage the speech was already slurred , you can hear it now watching the old footage with the benefit of hindsight

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Razbra" data-cid="585316" data-time="1465200723">
<div>
My father, like many others, was a huge Ali fan and coming from a boxing family his name came up a lot. But away from the ring the guy was just a good human. Thats what made him great. He just wanted equality for all and the world is so much better for having him in it. Im over this year. Take a break Death youve done enough. 
Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk
</div>
</blockquote>
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="585212" data-time="1465115210">
<div>
Because of the implications of having those views in times he lived in, and how he used his fame, talent and charisma to focus on civil rights?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.

Hooroo

The las play of the week is quite incredible in terms of reactions.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/80794905/plays-of-the-week-backheel-goals-powerful-dunks-kos-and-acrobatic-tries'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/80794905/plays-of-the-week-backheel-goals-powerful-dunks-kos-and-acrobatic-tries</a>
 
He really was ahead of his time in terms of showboating and getting the media to idolise him. What an amzing man

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="585371" data-time="1465250594">
<div>
Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Worse than all that I heard a rumour that he asked out a hot chick who worked at a Supermarket once.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="585371" data-time="1465250594">
<div>
Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah Ali's ideas on separate relations came through in the Parkinson interviews and Parkinson did bloody well confronting him on them.
 
Certainly in 2016 Ali's message, then, on this topic doesn't really hold logical water. It's an anathema to what we know is better, i.e. skin colour counts for zip, and cross cultural, (not cross racial IMO) integration strengths and benefits our species.
 
I thought similar to you Hydro when watching Ali's protestations. However, rightly or wrongly, I also thought that in the context of the apartheid (it was though) in the US at the time perhaps emotions and feelings were too raw from the black community to be advocating reconciliation. Perhaps it takes time to see through the mist when a group of people have treated you like shit for so long and finally you get some retreat from them. Is it too early in the process to embrace forgiveness, reconciliation and common relations?
 
Dunno
 
Mandela went from militant to peacemaker over many many years. i wonder if Ali latterly changed his vehement views
 
That's why it's a bit of a shame we never heard from him over the last 20 years.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="585371" data-time="1465250594">
<div>
Come on guys. Praise Ali all you like for being a boxer, praise him for Vietnam too if you must. Ali spoke at KKK rallies and boasted of the experience. If you want to eulogise Ali like that, go ahead. I just hope that you eulogise David Duke in the same way. Ali wanted 'equality for all' but didn't want white people to marry black people. What sort of twisted, perverted equality is that? I cant claim any knowledge as to whether Ali was 'good' but there were plenty of objectionable things he did away from the ring. If Ali was for civil rights, why did he launch racial attacks on Joe Frazier? Why did Ali claim The Fight of the Century was 'a white man's decision?' Ali was an incredibly racist person. Yes, there is a social context. Yes, I think his views make more sense when you consider what he grew up with. However, there were millions of black people and white people who wisely rejected Ali's bigoted views. I also do not know where Ali ever disavowed his views. This is the only apology Frazier ever got: "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." Ali never apologised to his face.
 
There is this thing 'don't speak ill of the dead.' It's a good thing. I think we need another thing though: 'don't embellish the dead either.' I wouldn't have done this, I didn't want to this but I had to post this in response to the misinformation in this thread. 'Equality for all' - don't make me laugh.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Ali spoke at a time when you could speak freely without stupid persecution for saying racist things. All his gorilla, bear taunts now would have him dragged over the coals by keyboard warriors globally. If I had his upbringing, I would have been as racist as hell too.
 
He was one of the first people to get in people's faces, stick it to white man, and proclaim the opposite, all whilst having a global following of basically every single black man, and a huge %age of white guys. The political views, the boxing, the show boating - the man was inspirational to many. Was he perfect, of course not, did he have the single most impact of any sportsperson ever, undoubtedly.
 
I don't think his impact on the world can be over-estimated.

Tim

Would you have been racist to over black people?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585420" data-time="1465264500">
<div>
Ali spoke at a time when you could speak freely without stupid persecution for saying racist things. All his gorilla, bear taunts now would have him dragged over the coals by keyboard warriors globally. If I had his upbringing, I would have been as racist as hell too.
 
He was one of the first people to get in people's faces, stick it to white man, and proclaim the opposite, all whilst having a global following of basically every single black man, and a huge %age of white guys. The political views, the boxing, the show boating - the man was inspirational to many. Was he perfect, of course not, did he have the single most impact of any sportsperson ever, undoubtedly.
 
I don't think his impact on the world can be over-estimated.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
 
It wasn't like black people could take the position of conciliation - they didn't have a legal leg to stand on in a lot of cases.
 
Yeah some of his shit was crazy. No interracial relationships was a doozy, but we can't frame that discussion in the context of our time. I don't agree with everything he said. And a lot of it WAS militant.
 
Ali's extremism was probably a direct attempt at putting a stake in the ground and making his oppressors come to him. There was no point starting in the middle ground, because any compromise would move him back toward the status quo.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="585423" data-time="1465265189">
<div>
Would you have been racist to over black people?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
By over, I think you mean other?
 
I don't know, I'm not him. But he was brought in to and raised in a world where people were identified, classed and given opportunities by race. So realistically, you'd have to say yes.

Cookie

He was a racist bully who definitely had a mean streak yay wide. Very much a flawed hero - it's what makes his character so interesting. He did moderate his views over time, he also became a more tolerant Sunni Muslim. As his quote goes - a man who has the same thoughts at 50 as when he was 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.

MN5

I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.

taniwharugby

I worked with a women, who's dad was the one that sparred with Ali when he was in NZ, when he just asked if anyone in the crowd wanted to spar with him.
 
She said he always talked of it as the single greatest moment of his life, above that of his numerous children.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585574" data-time="1465341450">
<div>
I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
He taunted George about waving the american flag ,Foreman used to carry it into the ring ,
 
Ali called it it the white mans flag , Ali called him an Uncle Tom , said he bent over to the White Man , 
 
 during the fight , he was saying to him , over and over , wheres your flag George wheres your flag ?

Cookie

He sure had a talent for climbing into people's heads. 
Ain't Karma a bitch though. Despite the humiliation of defeat Foreman ended up happier, healthier and considerably wealthier. Made millions from his lean mean grilling machine. My wife met him once (no not like that!) said he was massively relaxed, laid back happy guy - but had huge gravitas / charisma. When he spoke everyone listened. 
And this was when he was selling his grilling machine! I can only imagine what it must have been like to meet Ali or Tyson in their prime.

kiwiinmelb

They reckon Joe Frazier never really forgave Ali for the taunting he gave him , 
 
Joe didnt have Alis gift of the gab , and Ali tended to make fun of him as being a bit simple , Joe took it personally , and they say took it personally to his grave , 
 
Here is Joes message on his cell phone years later in his 60s , still holding a grudge, and pretty much taking the mickey out of Alis state of health ,

nostrildamus

He pulled out of school early didn't he?
As for that sandwich maker, I vaguely recall Foreman was the second person asked to endorse it but he ended up making from that than from his boxing! I have one and it is damn fine. Don't think it will get me in the ring at 45-50 or so like Foreman did.

Cookie

Although I imagine a lot of youngsters wonder why a chubby old dude is selling a "lean" griller!

The Silver Fern

RIP Muhammad Ali