RIP Muhammad Ali

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="585423" data-time="1465265189">
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Would you have been racist to over black people?
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By over, I think you mean other?
 
I don't know, I'm not him. But he was brought in to and raised in a world where people were identified, classed and given opportunities by race. So realistically, you'd have to say yes.

Cookie

He was a racist bully who definitely had a mean streak yay wide. Very much a flawed hero - it's what makes his character so interesting. He did moderate his views over time, he also became a more tolerant Sunni Muslim. As his quote goes - a man who has the same thoughts at 50 as when he was 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.

MN5

I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.

taniwharugby

I worked with a women, who's dad was the one that sparred with Ali when he was in NZ, when he just asked if anyone in the crowd wanted to spar with him.
 
She said he always talked of it as the single greatest moment of his life, above that of his numerous children.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585574" data-time="1465341450">
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I did find his taunts to George Foreman somewhat odd given that, as Foreman pointed out, he was "blacker than Ali".
 
He certainly made sure he was painted the hero and GF painted the big bad guy, mind you Foreman is the only man in history who looks tougher with an afro rather than a shaved head. He looked mean and fuck in the 70s but a nice approachable fella in later years.
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He taunted George about waving the american flag ,Foreman used to carry it into the ring ,
 
Ali called it it the white mans flag , Ali called him an Uncle Tom , said he bent over to the White Man , 
 
 during the fight , he was saying to him , over and over , wheres your flag George wheres your flag ?

Cookie

He sure had a talent for climbing into people's heads. 
Ain't Karma a bitch though. Despite the humiliation of defeat Foreman ended up happier, healthier and considerably wealthier. Made millions from his lean mean grilling machine. My wife met him once (no not like that!) said he was massively relaxed, laid back happy guy - but had huge gravitas / charisma. When he spoke everyone listened. 
And this was when he was selling his grilling machine! I can only imagine what it must have been like to meet Ali or Tyson in their prime.

kiwiinmelb

They reckon Joe Frazier never really forgave Ali for the taunting he gave him , 
 
Joe didnt have Alis gift of the gab , and Ali tended to make fun of him as being a bit simple , Joe took it personally , and they say took it personally to his grave , 
 
Here is Joes message on his cell phone years later in his 60s , still holding a grudge, and pretty much taking the mickey out of Alis state of health ,

nostrildamus

He pulled out of school early didn't he?
As for that sandwich maker, I vaguely recall Foreman was the second person asked to endorse it but he ended up making from that than from his boxing! I have one and it is damn fine. Don't think it will get me in the ring at 45-50 or so like Foreman did.

Cookie

Although I imagine a lot of youngsters wonder why a chubby old dude is selling a "lean" griller!

kiwiinmelb

The funny thing with that griller , george had nothing to do with it initially , 
 
the company approached him asking him to help market it for them , he said ok , and made millions from it , 
 
they initially approached Hulk Hogan and he didnt return their call ,thought it sounded like a waste of time, he jokingly says the biggest mistake of his career

Cookie

That's pretty funny. I think Foreman only got involved because he thought he'd be able to raise a few dollars for his church.

MN5

Whenever a famous boxer dies I always Wikipedia a few of them out of habit.
 
Sounds like Sonny Liston had an "interesting" life shrouded in mystery. Poor bugger didn't even know how old he was ! As I mentioned Foreman losing to Ali was great for him as a person, same can't be said for SL.

dogmeat

Ali wasn't a saint - far from it. He said some really dumb shit at times as he said himself - I said I was the greatest, not the brightest.
 
He was reviled by many when he made his anti-war stance but as public support for the war waned his mana grew and then came the fights of the 70's
 
I remember rushing home from school in 6th form to watch the Thrilla live with a bunch of mates. My mother had a cash account with the local pub who would eliver any amount of booze to 16 yr olds no questions asked as long as they had the cash ready. Great party.
 
He said some disgusting things about Frazier, but he said much the same to and about almost every opponent. Not excusing it or some of the othger dumb shit but I do think Ali did just see it as trash talking.
 
Certainly Frazier was bitter for a very long time but it was more complicated maybe than some make out. Frazier was also bitter because he reckoned he beat Ali more than once and because he didn't have the rep or money Ali did
 
From Chicago Tribune
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Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."
During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.
"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."
Frazier embraced the apology.
"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."
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and the Guardian
 
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Frazier: "He shook me in Manila. We were gladiators. I didn't ask no favours of him and he didn't ask none of me. I don't like him but I gotta say, in the ring, he was a man. In Manila, I hit him punches, those punches, they'd have knocked a building down. And he took 'em. He took 'em and he came back, and I got to respect that part of the man. But I sent him home worse than he came. He was the one who spoke about being nearly dead in Manila, not me."
Ali: "We went to Manila as champions, Joe and me, and we came back as old men."
Ali: "I heard somethin' once. When somebody asked a marathon runner what goes through his mind in the last mile or two, he said that you ask yourself, 'Why am I doin' this?' You get so tired. It takes so much out of you mentally. It changes you. It makes you go a little insane. I was thinkin' that at the end. Why am I doin' this? What am I doin' in here against this beast of a man? It's so painful. I must be crazy. I always bring out the best in the men I fight, but Joe Frazier, I'll tell the world right now, brings out the best in me. I'm gonna tell ya, that's one helluva man, and God bless him."
Frazier: "If we were twins in the belly of our mama, I'd reach over and strangle him."
Frazier: "Ali would not be Ali unless I had come along. Him and me had three fights," Joe says. "He won two of them, I won one. But if you look at him now, you can see who won them all. Me!"
Frazier: "Why did he say the things he said? Only he has the answer to that, and I would prefer not to comment on it. He just seemed to have a bad word for everybody. It was just foolishness."
Ali: "I'm sorry Joe Frazier is mad at me. I'm sorry I hurt him. Joe Frazier is a good man, and I couldn't have done what I did without him, and he couldn't have done what he did without me. And if God ever calls me to a holy war, I want Joe Frazier fighting beside me. "
Frazier: "I hated Ali. God might not like me talking that way, but it's in my heart. I know things would have been different for me if he hadn't been around. I'd have gotten a lot more respect. I'd have had more appreciation from my own kind. Twenty years I've been fighting Ali, and I still want to take him apart piece by piece and send him back to Jesus."
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Frazier: "The Butterfly and me have been through some ups and downs and there have been lots of emotions, many of them bad. But I have forgiven him. I had to. You cannot hold out for ever. There were bruises in my heart because of the words he used. I spent years dreaming about him and wanting to hurt him. But you have got to throw that stick out of the window. Do not forget that we needed each other, to produce some of the greatest fights of all time."
Ali: "I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologise for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight."
 
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kiwiinmelb

One thing that very rarely gets mentioned , Ali had a huge motivation for the dollar , 
 
All that trash talking was part of the show ,he was the best self promoter in the business 
 
Much like Mayweather in recent times , and on a smaller more local stage Mundine , 
 
They all divided the public , its interesting in the fight game , how public enemy number 1 quite often gets paid the most

Cookie

This is a great little story showing the more considerate side of Ali. 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015</a>

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="585867" data-time="1465447880">
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One thing that very rarely gets mentioned , Ali had a huge motivation for the dollar , 
 
All that trash talking was part of the show ,he was the best self promoter in the business 
 
Much like Mayweather in recent times , and on a smaller more local stage Mundine , 
 
They all divided the public , its interesting in the fight game , how public enemy number 1 quite often gets paid the most 
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I'll freely admit to not being much of a tennis fan but the principle is the same ie man on man or woman on woman......save for John McEnroe and to a lesser extent Andre Agassi I can't think of any real self promoters ( obviously hot female players help hugely ) but the guys who are always number one and make a fucken shitload are generally bland and boring as batshit ( Sampras, Jokovich, Federer etc )
 
What I'm getting at is why does one sport ( Boxing ) need it's good and bad guys but another ( Tennis ) not ?

canefan

Characters have been beaten out of tennis. Djoker is funny but Kyrios is the only bad boy I can think of right now. Boxing, like MMA and even pro wrestling needs drama even when there is none. Perhaps bloodsport isn't as interesting without the conflict

Catogrande

Maybe because one is just a sport. No-one dies from playing tennis.
 
Well apart from fat old farts with heart problems but they're one foot in the grave and one foot on a banana skin anyway.

Cookie

For example I like watching Olympic boxing - no build-ups, bad mouthing etc and plenty of skill on display. However my interest is on another level when you've got the "back story" and you want one boxer to rip the other a new one. 
I guess either:

there is something primal about boxing that brings out the savage in us, or
in other sports you support a team you have invested your emotion into, and boxing is no different

Chris B.

Tennis you've got three tournaments a week. A top boxer's going to fight only two or three times a year. Without the circus you might forget about them.

The Silver Fern

RIP Muhammad Ali