Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@MN5 and a 10fer has happened 3 times in 150 years. 300 - 32 times. I'd say - at the risk of going all Thomas Aquinas - that represents a far greater achievement based on the rarity of it occurring
On that basis it's equivalent to 375 runs ...
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Ok I’ve had a think and yes, a 10 fer actually is a far more impressive achievement purely cos it is getting ALL the wickets. There’s no real equivalent as a batsman as theoretically you can go for as long as you want.
Fair to say this is far and away the best bowling performance ever……
Only got 9 in the first innings so thought fuck it and got 10 in the second !!!!
ENG vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Manchester, July 26 - 31, 1956
Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, ENG vs AUS, Australia tour of England 1956 at Old Trafford, Manchester dated July 26 - 31, 1956.
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Nah I don't buy that. Getting all 10 just means that the rest of the bowlers were rubbish. Its a neat statistical anomaly, but doesn't change the course of a match like a triple century does. Technically the batting equivalent would be get 100% of the runs but that's vastly harder to do. Maybe make the cut off 2/3rds of the runs and you then get 2 instances in test history.
The equivalent to a triple century is a hattrick. No one is pushing for Jimmy Franklin or Peter Petherick to be included though.
I think McCullum is a fair inclusion though when you consider the whole body of work. If he'd had a career like Andy Sandham or Karun Nair I'd get it. But the second half of so of his career he was phenomenal on the pitch and a fantastic captain. The triple and the fastest ton push him over the top.
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@Cyclops said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Nah I don't buy that. Getting all 10 just means that the rest of the bowlers were rubbish. Its a neat statistical anomaly, but doesn't change the course of a match like a triple century does. Technically the batting equivalent would be get 100% of the runs but that's vastly harder to do. Maybe make the cut off 2/3rds of the runs and you then get 2 instances in test history.
The equivalent to a triple century is a hattrick. No one is pushing for Jimmy Franklin or Peter Petherick to be included though.
I think McCullum is a fair inclusion though when you consider the whole body of work. If he'd had a career like Andy Sandham or Karun Nair I'd get it. But the second half of so of his career he was phenomenal on the pitch and a fantastic captain. The triple and the fastest ton push him over the top.
I sort of get what you mean but if you were right it would happen far more often than it does.
We all agree Hadlee was the best of his time and of all time. He got 9-52 in one innings. Amazing stuff. But in terms of other amazing performances the next best he got was a couple of 7 fers meaning the rest of the NZ bowlers ( and all his teammates were quite a few rungs below him in terms of quality ) often chipped in with a few here and there.
10 in an innings is incredible and rare.
But then your point about it not changing a match like a triple ton stands too.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
But then your point about it not changing a match like a triple ton stands too.
Actually no.
Ajaz's 10 fer didn't change that match, but Lakers certainly did. The other England bowlers - Statham, Lock. Bailey so no slouches, bowled 90+ overs in that match against a decent Australian batting side without taking a wicket. Laker definitely bowled England to victory. Kumble also played a significant role in India's victory over Pakistan. Sure, other bowlers might have stepped up, but you could say the same for a lot of the batting records.
The bowling is a small sample but one definitely won the match, one went a long way towards the same and one had no real influence.
A lot more triples but if I could be arsed I'm sure you'd see a similar pattern. Sure, Baz's innings saved the match for us but just taking one example - chosen just for you. Gayle scored halfish of the Windies 700 odd against SA, but SA had already posted nearly 600 on an absolute road. There were only 30 overs possible in SA's second innings before the match finished during which time SA lost one for 127. The triple was a nice statistic for Gayle and padded his average but it had a negligible effect on the games outcome.
The 10 fer is rare for a reason. Absolutely McCullum is a NZ great but in the top 8 male players of all time. Not for me. All the other male players would have got into a World XI or second XI at their peak. Baz didn't ever get close to that level.
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@booboo said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
With hindsight, Laker must have been absolutely pissed at Tony Lock.
Reminds me of Hadlee denying himself the 10fer ...
Taking a catch in BNE I think?
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@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@booboo said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
With hindsight, Laker must have been absolutely pissed at Tony Lock.
Reminds me of Hadlee denying himself the 10fer ...
Taking a catch in BNE I think?
Correct. Geoff Lawson off Vaughan Brown (had to look that up, the only bit of that I got right was "Vaughan" something).
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
But then your point about it not changing a match like a triple ton stands too.
Actually no.
Ajaz's 10 fer didn't change that match, but Lakers certainly did. The other England bowlers - Statham, Lock. Bailey so no slouches, bowled 90+ overs in that match against a decent Australian batting side without taking a wicket. Laker definitely bowled England to victory. Kumble also played a significant role in India's victory over Pakistan. Sure, other bowlers might have stepped up, but you could say the same for a lot of the batting records.
The bowling is a small sample but one definitely won the match, one went a long way towards the same and one had no real influence.
A lot more triples but if I could be arsed I'm sure you'd see a similar pattern. Sure, Baz's innings saved the match for us but just taking one example - chosen just for you. Gayle scored halfish of the Windies 700 odd against SA, but SA had already posted nearly 600 on an absolute road. There were only 30 overs possible in SA's second innings before the match finished during which time SA lost one for 127. The triple was a nice statistic for Gayle and padded his average but it had a negligible effect on the games outcome.
The 10 fer is rare for a reason. Absolutely McCullum is a NZ great but in the top 8 male players of all time. Not for me. All the other male players would have got into a World XI or second XI at their peak. Baz didn't ever get close to that level.
Accurate.
Too many other top quality keeper batsmen/batsmen to compete with.
New Zealand have had two cricket legends, guys who would walk into a World XI in their era. Paddles and KW are their names.
In that next tier of ‘NZ greats’ Crowe would lead the pack. Then names like Turner, Sutcliffe, Taylor, Cairns, Vettori, Boult, Wagner etc. Guys who at their absolute best would make a World XI in a given year.
I’m not convinced McCullum is in this league either. Was he that much better than BJ Watling if at all ?
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@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
I’m not convinced McCullum is in this league either. Was he that much better than BJ Watling if at all ?
As a Wicketkeeper/Batsman in test Watling is definitely ahead of McCullum. In limited overs there is obviuosly no contest.
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team. 2015 we made the World Cup final for the first time and he played a big part in making that happen. 2019 we made final for a second time (and should have won if not for silly rules!) and that is definitely a result of the foundation laid by McCullum and Hesson.
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@LABCAT said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team.
Still don't think it makes him one of our eight greatest male cricketers of all time
Yes he led us to the final in 2015 He also lasted three balls in the match. Id and ego.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@LABCAT said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team.
Still don't think it makes him one of our eight greatest male cricketers of all time
Yes he led us to the final in 2015 He also lasted three balls in the match. Id and ego.
McCullum had an aura I’ll certainly give him that but in terms of output there were better players. Loved watching him when in form but you can’t say a batsman with a test average under 40 is one of our best ever even with our limited pool of cricket greats compared to other countries.
If we rank him purely as a batsman he’s in the Coney/Astle/McMillan bracket all things considered.
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Are you ranking him purely as a batsman or not? If you're ranking him purely as a batsman, it's only fair to take out matches where he was playing as a keeper-batsman. That brings his average up to almost 43. Not world class but certainly test class for a sample size of 49 tests.
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Its a good question, does he make a best mens 11 as a wicket keeper? Probably not. Does he make best mens 11 as a batsman? maybe. Does he make best combined mens and womens 11? less chance.
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Personally, even though I made an argument that he doesn't necessarily have the odds to get in, I do have splinters. As I think he does make it. For me he changed the way we played (arguably the last time we also fielded well) and during that time we won more than we lost. The 300 goes a long way to cementing that place as well. Agree though Ajaz should in time make it with a 10for
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@bayimports said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Its a good question, does he make a best mens 11 as a wicket keeper? Probably not. Does he make best mens 11 as a batsman? maybe. Does he make best combined mens and womens 11? less chance.
If he doesn’t make it as a keeper he has even less chance as a batsman.
But then there are a few intangibles that make him a chance I guess
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I guess it depends on how much you weight the back third or so of his career. He spent a lot of time figuring out his game, but in that last third his average was up into the mid 40s, he scored multiple doubles, the triple, the fastest test ton and became the first kiwi to score 1000 runs in a calendar year (Kane the only other batter to do it). It's beyond just a hot streak, he really turned himself around. On the other side, he spent almost twice as long as a guy who probably benefitted from a weaker depth pool. Late career McCullum walks into the current test team. Early career McCullum probably doesn't even make the squad.
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He basically spent 6 years being McCullum the keeper, then 3 years being Conway the opener (but a bit better), then 3 years being Darryl Mitchell the number 5 (but a bit better).
Those are pretty accurate statistical comparisons for number of games and averages
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FWIW I would have Jack Cowie in the initial intake. I reckon he was probably the best fast bowler in the world.
But McCullum's record as an 'everyman' of NZ cricket is comparable to JR Reid, who isn't being quibbled about. Albeit Reid had to carry a team while McCullum got to (eventually) excel.
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