Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.
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@booboo said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
With hindsight, Laker must have been absolutely pissed at Tony Lock.
Reminds me of Hadlee denying himself the 10fer ...
Taking a catch in BNE I think?
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@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@booboo said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@Snowy said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
With hindsight, Laker must have been absolutely pissed at Tony Lock.
Reminds me of Hadlee denying himself the 10fer ...
Taking a catch in BNE I think?
Correct. Geoff Lawson off Vaughan Brown (had to look that up, the only bit of that I got right was "Vaughan" something).
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
But then your point about it not changing a match like a triple ton stands too.
Actually no.
Ajaz's 10 fer didn't change that match, but Lakers certainly did. The other England bowlers - Statham, Lock. Bailey so no slouches, bowled 90+ overs in that match against a decent Australian batting side without taking a wicket. Laker definitely bowled England to victory. Kumble also played a significant role in India's victory over Pakistan. Sure, other bowlers might have stepped up, but you could say the same for a lot of the batting records.
The bowling is a small sample but one definitely won the match, one went a long way towards the same and one had no real influence.
A lot more triples but if I could be arsed I'm sure you'd see a similar pattern. Sure, Baz's innings saved the match for us but just taking one example - chosen just for you. Gayle scored halfish of the Windies 700 odd against SA, but SA had already posted nearly 600 on an absolute road. There were only 30 overs possible in SA's second innings before the match finished during which time SA lost one for 127. The triple was a nice statistic for Gayle and padded his average but it had a negligible effect on the games outcome.
The 10 fer is rare for a reason. Absolutely McCullum is a NZ great but in the top 8 male players of all time. Not for me. All the other male players would have got into a World XI or second XI at their peak. Baz didn't ever get close to that level.
Accurate.
Too many other top quality keeper batsmen/batsmen to compete with.
New Zealand have had two cricket legends, guys who would walk into a World XI in their era. Paddles and KW are their names.
In that next tier of ‘NZ greats’ Crowe would lead the pack. Then names like Turner, Sutcliffe, Taylor, Cairns, Vettori, Boult, Wagner etc. Guys who at their absolute best would make a World XI in a given year.
I’m not convinced McCullum is in this league either. Was he that much better than BJ Watling if at all ?
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@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
I’m not convinced McCullum is in this league either. Was he that much better than BJ Watling if at all ?
As a Wicketkeeper/Batsman in test Watling is definitely ahead of McCullum. In limited overs there is obviuosly no contest.
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team. 2015 we made the World Cup final for the first time and he played a big part in making that happen. 2019 we made final for a second time (and should have won if not for silly rules!) and that is definitely a result of the foundation laid by McCullum and Hesson.
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@LABCAT said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team.
Still don't think it makes him one of our eight greatest male cricketers of all time
Yes he led us to the final in 2015 He also lasted three balls in the match. Id and ego.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@LABCAT said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Where McCullum probably makes it into the our hall of fame is for his leadership and the change of attitude he brought to the team.
Still don't think it makes him one of our eight greatest male cricketers of all time
Yes he led us to the final in 2015 He also lasted three balls in the match. Id and ego.
McCullum had an aura I’ll certainly give him that but in terms of output there were better players. Loved watching him when in form but you can’t say a batsman with a test average under 40 is one of our best ever even with our limited pool of cricket greats compared to other countries.
If we rank him purely as a batsman he’s in the Coney/Astle/McMillan bracket all things considered.
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Are you ranking him purely as a batsman or not? If you're ranking him purely as a batsman, it's only fair to take out matches where he was playing as a keeper-batsman. That brings his average up to almost 43. Not world class but certainly test class for a sample size of 49 tests.
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Its a good question, does he make a best mens 11 as a wicket keeper? Probably not. Does he make best mens 11 as a batsman? maybe. Does he make best combined mens and womens 11? less chance.
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Personally, even though I made an argument that he doesn't necessarily have the odds to get in, I do have splinters. As I think he does make it. For me he changed the way we played (arguably the last time we also fielded well) and during that time we won more than we lost. The 300 goes a long way to cementing that place as well. Agree though Ajaz should in time make it with a 10for
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@bayimports said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
Its a good question, does he make a best mens 11 as a wicket keeper? Probably not. Does he make best mens 11 as a batsman? maybe. Does he make best combined mens and womens 11? less chance.
If he doesn’t make it as a keeper he has even less chance as a batsman.
But then there are a few intangibles that make him a chance I guess
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I guess it depends on how much you weight the back third or so of his career. He spent a lot of time figuring out his game, but in that last third his average was up into the mid 40s, he scored multiple doubles, the triple, the fastest test ton and became the first kiwi to score 1000 runs in a calendar year (Kane the only other batter to do it). It's beyond just a hot streak, he really turned himself around. On the other side, he spent almost twice as long as a guy who probably benefitted from a weaker depth pool. Late career McCullum walks into the current test team. Early career McCullum probably doesn't even make the squad.
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He basically spent 6 years being McCullum the keeper, then 3 years being Conway the opener (but a bit better), then 3 years being Darryl Mitchell the number 5 (but a bit better).
Those are pretty accurate statistical comparisons for number of games and averages
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FWIW I would have Jack Cowie in the initial intake. I reckon he was probably the best fast bowler in the world.
But McCullum's record as an 'everyman' of NZ cricket is comparable to JR Reid, who isn't being quibbled about. Albeit Reid had to carry a team while McCullum got to (eventually) excel.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
He basically spent 6 years being McCullum the keeper, then 3 years being Conway the opener (but a bit better), then 3 years being Darryl Mitchell the number 5 (but a bit better).
Those are pretty accurate statistical comparisons for number of games and averages
Him and Vettori bailed us out of the shit at 7 and 8 respectively. I’m sure his record there is good.
Of course they might have looked better due to the top order we had at the time.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
@Rapido said in Black Caps First Eleven for hall of fame.:
He basically spent 6 years being McCullum the keeper, then 3 years being Conway the opener (but a bit better), then 3 years being Darryl Mitchell the number 5 (but a bit better).
Those are pretty accurate statistical comparisons for number of games and averages
Him and Vettori bailed us out of the shit at 7 and 8 respectively. I’m sure his record there is good.
Of course they might have looked better due to the top order we had at the time.
The batting part of his game when he was keeper-batsman is the weakest part of his overall record.
Averaged 30 in an era of Dhoni, Prior, late Gilchrist etc. And post-Flower.
Especially as he was probably usually the second or 3rd batsman in the team 'on talent', and we needed those lower order runs at that time because of the weak top order. Definitely under-performed in the late 2000s IMO.
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I think McCullum in an all time NZ Text XI is questionable as WK-batsman, but all time white ball XI isn't. Given this is an all format list, even ignoring T20Is (fair enough), McCullum is the best ever all format WK-batsman we've produced in that I think he's a lot better in ODIs than Watling, than Watling was better than McCullum in tests. If we had to send an all time XI to play tests and ODIs, say (so same XI for both), I think I'd pick McCullum over Watling as the all time keeper.
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Lots of griefing about McCullum, but not so much about Vettori. He was awesome for us - but as a core spinner he was ... kind of 'meh'. Would struggle to be in a World XI for tests (or 2nds); maybe for ODI. But that's not a massive claim to fame.
Like McCullum though he did more - the captaining, coaching, mentoring - he did damn near everything for NZC. Don't get me wrong - I loved him - but his place in a top XI must be questionable by their criteria.
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