All Blacks v France
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France:
You mean Foster saying Stevenson had improved defensively and he'd like him to continue improving?
Yeah, from uninterested to just incompetent. If he does improve enough to be a contender, that's marvellous for NZ rugby. On the evidence he didn't do as requested.
By evidence do you mean your opinion?
Of the players who played meaningful minutes at fullback in this years SRP only Stephen Perofeta and Cole Forbes had higher tackle completed percentage than Stevenson.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v France:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
Today we were up 14-3 and comfortable and just blew it.
Agreed. We fell apart in the later stages of the game. Quelle surprise.
It doesn't matter that we lost differently to the last 4 years, completely dominated or were comfortably up 14-3 at half-time. We still lost when we should have won.
It's the same poor game management and inability to remain cool and reassert control under pressure we've seen for the last 6-7 years. Today was pretty much a repeat of Bled 1 this year, Twickenham in '22 and much of Lions 2017.
I really thought a corner had been turned last week but we regressed - again. Maybe it's time to ditch the older players/make a fresh start with a new management group inc. the likes of Vaa'i, Sititi etc.
Oh I agree there is clearly a mental issue with some of the players. I actually think a lot of the core guys from the last 6 years have just gotten used to losing, while the younger newer ones are much more confident and willing to play.
But at least we are now saying confidently these are games we SHOULD have won.
The 4 years prior.. pretty much every game lost was a deserved loss where we were never in it, and even some of the wins we were the inferior team scraping past by a whisker, praying the other team plays below themselves so we have a shot.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@junior said in All Blacks v France:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France:
@LagerLout said in All Blacks v France:
We are miles off being a good team, personnel wise and strategy wise. We were bloody slow to the ruck in the second half. Our wingers are bollock slow. The only places we look dangerous are in in the starting front and back rows, the rest of it we are struggling. Feels like a bleak WC cycle to me. We had so much talent and where is it now.
I have pretty much the completely opposite view. NZ lost to one of the top four teams in the world at their fortress (and it is a fortress, the loudest and most partisan atmosphere you'll get at any ground around the world).
NZ have a great front row with Samisoni Taukei'aho still to return, some very good young loose forwards, two very promising halfbacks in Roigard and Ratima.
There are a few issues across the line-up but Razor will probably push the boat out a little more next year. There's a few pieces of deadweight that probably need to be moved on but already Cane and Perenara will be gone next year, Reece has probably played his last game in black, and there are a few more players who will be under a lot of pressure. It bodes well for the future, even if they didn't always get the biscuits this year.
Bolded bit - agree with this a lot but I am not sure that we are playing to this area of strength. We are still trying to play the game like we have the world's best midfield and back 3, and a relatively weak but mobile pack, which we clearly do not.
If Razor has half a brain, over the next 3 years, we will become much more a 10 man rugby team, that scores tries off mauls, close in running and chaos ball counter attacks.
I would agree our best moments are when our forwards are smashing it up the guts, along with strong LO defence and strong scrummaging
Ah, what? Our only created try today was offload a-go-go, lots of passes around the back, and an almost intercepted loop pass.
When we were on top we played out the back almost exclusively.The problem came when France got their hands in the ball our pack had no answers for their round the corner at pace forwards game.
Then in the second half when France adapted and stopped missing tackles, and turned evey ruck in to a shit fight, we didn't adapt.
Didn't Lakai score a try up the guts? At other times we got lots of go forward but couldn't convert it to points
Lol no go watch it again
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
@Jet said in All Blacks v France:
Ethan DeGroot probably glad he missed that meeting today. He'd have been blowing out his arse in that game of bull rush.
I think he has some serious work to do to regain his starting spot
Lakai didn't look out of place tonight.
One of the bright spots of this year has been the new loosies and front row selections. They may be down to injury, but they haven't just slotted in seamlessly by accident and Ryan's clearly done a good job there.
But will Razor view these bright spots as important foundation pieces for the present and the future, or as place fillers for injured incumbents? Next year will be crucial. He has to set the tone and not waste any game time in forming the team that will challenge for Bill in 2027
That's my biggest disappointment. Totally understand his cautious approach in the first year and use of old hands to pass experience, but he's used the old hands far too much. Just hope he gets a bit more radical next year
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France:
You mean Foster saying Stevenson had improved defensively and he'd like him to continue improving?
Yeah, from uninterested to just incompetent. If he does improve enough to be a contender, that's marvellous for NZ rugby. On the evidence he didn't do as requested.
By evidence do you mean your opinion?
Of the players who played meaningful minutes at fullback in this years SRP only Stephen Perofeta and Cole Forbes had higher tackle completed percentage than Stevenson.
That can mean as little as he didn't bother attempting difficult tackles. I suggest you watch him play and get back to us about this strength of his.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
But at least we are now saying confidently these are games we SHOULD have won.
Disagree completely. We should have won multiple games in the last 6 years. We didn't mainly for the same reason we lost last nite - poor on-field management (remember Read's staring eyes?).
At the moment, at best, we are playing to the level of last years RWC knock-out stages or Ellis Park '23 - just not consistently.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v France:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
But at least we are now saying confidently these are games we SHOULD have won.
Disagree completely. We should have won multiple games in the last 6 years. We didn't mainly for the same reason we lost last nite - poor on-field management (remember Read's staring eyes?).
At the moment, at best, we are playing to the level of last years RWC knock-out stages or Ellis Park '23 - just not consistently.
That's fine I just disagree.
I felt a genuine sense of dread watching us play for most of 2020-2023.
Felt more often than not we offered nothing against the TOP teams.
That they could beat us playing at 75% AND that we would need to be at our best (with our horrible attack shape) to possibly have a chance.
That's just my perspective.
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Think the confounding thing for me was why start BB when DMac was so influential vs Ireland. BB's attack was non-existent last night and took us back light years. The halves combination DMac has built with Cam looks much more slick, and he releases the backline instead of holding them back and making them look clueless. Jordie's injury was pivotal to the game, momentum shifted after he went off. I'm all for chipping away at the lead, but that last decision to take three was wrong. And we need a fast wing.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v France:
For the whole 'why take 3' argument
The only try we constructed was Lakai's in the first 10 minutes (Roigard's was a piece of individual brilliance)
Others have discussed that the most likely option is a line out drive, but I feel like we are being let down by Hansen. Bryn Hall is always talking about Crusader strike plays, supposedly from this 'genius' but we've yet to see much of them. This was the moment to run everything we have, and... we'll kick for goal, Scott?
OK you dumb fuck.
(this last part is directed at him, not you @KiwiMurph)
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@junior said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
We win that game with Dmac starting, would have been up by 30 first half when we had the momentum. Fukn dumb selections cost us the game.
And then we take off Roigard 50th min for some dumb reason.
The way that first half played out I agree, the way DMac plays we would have made a lot more of our possession
What was evident today is that our game plan and ability to score points when on top depends heavily on the quickness of DMac's pass.
We built our lead on the back of continuity and a direct, forward orientated game plan. In the third quarter we moved away from that plan and tried to play wider without doing the hard work, and that allowed the French back in
What I am really getting at is that we didn't have a big enough halftime lead because, for all that good work up front, BB's slow passing was a real handbrake in us exploiting the space that we had created wider out.
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I finally got a chance to watch the final 20. We had some excellent possession in good attacking areas that we couldn't convert into points, either due to poor handling, forced passes or failure to control our ruck ball.
The ref became increasingly erratic, and became increasingly overruled by the TMO, and basically swallowed his whistle to allow the French to infringe at the breakdown.
Perhaps we should have kicked for the corner. But we still had 5 minutes to play, and we regained possession with the line in sight only for BB to waste a golden opportunity by crabbing across, wasting time and space which resulted in Rieko dropping a pass with the French up in our line. With a little better backline management it could have all been quite different. We've lost a close game to SA in Joburg, and lost a close one in France. We need a little more composure and precision, but I believe these are things that can be fixed
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
Razor fucked around and found out
2-0 on a NH tour and he changes the team
That’s Wales level dumb
Who did he change? Roigard and ?
Edit: oh yeah, Taylor
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@booboo said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
Razor fucked around and found out
2-0 on a NH tour and he changes the team
That’s Wales level dumb
Who did he change? Roigard and ?
Edit: oh yeah, Taylor
DMac was MOTM vs Ireland. Aumua was just behind him. Subbing two of your hottest players for two guys coming out of concussion protocol is madness
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Haven't seen it on TV yet but in summary:
2024 is a pass
Biggest fault in 2024 is misplaced loyalty to some of the legends
Sititi Lakai Williams Tosi have proved they are up to it.
One of the young stars should be captain
We had the wrong first five starting vs England/France
We need fast wingers end of story
Roigard didn't lose anything in comparison with bro.
French supporters were loving this singing their songs on the way home.
Still think midfield not right, Ioane is a good winger -
The ABs didn’t lose because of Ioane… midfield part of the reason we could/should have been out of sight by halftime.
Big issues were Ratima, B Barrett (second half), ALB and Reece. The attack fell apart once Roigard and Jordie went off… and we probably should still have won the game.
You don’t win points for playing better rugby, but the long-term health of this team is good, assuming we iron out the kinks. We have had the better of everyone this year for the majority of our tests, which is better than fluking results with poor overall performances. If you can’t see the progress, I can’t help you.
Is it slower than we might like? Of course, but this is a new coaching team at a start if a new World Cup cycle, who barring an aberration to Argentina had performed pretty bloody well.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France:
Increasingly noticeable for me how 10 and 15 aren't prepared in Super rugby in certain areas for the international level, such as kicking.
How was Beaudens super form? Even if he were learning those skills at international level he has enough caps to have nailed them.
McKenzie kicks often and long for the Chiefs, with Stevenson doing the same.Why are you mentioning Stevenson? Merhtens looks like Collins compared to Stevenson. In an era of "both sides of the ball" he's absent half the time.
Because it was a reply to a post about super rugby 10s and 15s kicking.
Why are you talking about both sides of the ball when kicking it means having it?Because that's the stated criteria for selection. So anyone with a booming boot who is a turnstile isn't likely to get a call up.
So going off those stats, does that mean Love is excluded?
If we believe them. I've seen enough of Stevenson to form an opinion on his defensive attributes. I'll watch Love more closely next year and if he's much the same no one should be in any doubt I'll call a spade a spade.
I think you're overegging it. Dagg was no better as a defender and he had a 66 test career due to his aerial dominance, booming boot, playmaker ability and running game. Stevenson has similar strengths.
Dagg played when the ABs at win percentage in the high 80s and early 90s. He was also an important part of an RWC winning campaign. Obviously his turnstile defense didn't prevent the ABs from winning.
Dagg seemed more committed than Stevenson? I'd worry about the latter's confidence levels-he can fall apart. He's a big lump and offensive weapon but he needs to be consistent, mentally tough and a better tackler from what I can see.
A shame-he is undeniably talented. -
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France:
Well you could always put Jordie back at 15 and try out Lam at 12
..but Love deserves next crack at 15 I reckon.
May as well go the whole hog and recall George Bridge for maximum lack of impact
Lam ain't no Bridge.
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Jordan is an OK test fullback, but his defense and decision making get exposed against the top sides. On the wing, neither of those things get exposed and he is one of the greats who scores tries for fun against anyone. His strike rate there is insane and we are just so much stronger with him and Clarke on the wings. I get the feeling Razor has been desperate to move him to fullback as that's where he has played alot at Super level without really considering what strengths are super important for a test fullback.
Jordie regularly got MOTM votes at the back based purely on his defense and work under the high ball. It has been really frustrating watching them continue to select Jordan at 15 as it makes him a worse player and our back three much weaker. We have plenty of players that can play in the 15 jumper to a high level, I am hoping against hope they get Jordan back on the wing next season.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
Razor fucked around and found out
2-0 on a NH tour and he changes the team
That’s Wales level dumb
Who did he change? Roigard and ?
Edit: oh yeah, Taylor
DMac was MOTM vs Ireland. Aumua was just behind him. Subbing two of your hottest players for two guys coming out of concussion protocol is madness
Can understand Aumua on workload. DMac no.
