All Blacks vs Ireland
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@Kruse said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
Hurricanes fan
Now hold on a minute, let's not start saying things we can't take back.
Fair enough - sorry, that was too far. Banning offence.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@nzzp Cheers. Always loved reading the Fern, it's nice to contribute a bit in my own way.
If you really want to fit in around here, make sure you remember the Fern motto. You're really breaking a few rules at the moment.
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight
Wrong about pretty much everything
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Having just read the last 500 posts it is very interesting the way the consensus went from "Robertson is shit, we have lost this, we are brainless, the world is fucked" at around the 50-minute mark to "best defensive effort in forever, selectors really getting it right, played smart rugby, possible era defining victory, bring it on world". 😂
I was pleasantly surprised by the performance on a number of levels, but Ireland looked bloody poor and rusty as fuck. Need to perform consistently and against good sides - both England and Ireland have looked below par - before I'm going to get too lathered up.
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To be fair though we also maybe didn't let them play well - as Mauss has written.
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Am happy to see Cane link more often , he's not a consistently effective carrier with his low level of speed (something he had in his first test). And good to see Tele'a getting some speed back, I think he had an injury, not just a positional change.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
Doesn't know WTF he is talking about, I'd pay 125 quid to watch Ireland at home get their arses kicked by the ABs anytime
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@Mauss A for effort again, and a great convo starter, but i am not sure the stills are showing what you want them to.
Take the first 2 with teh kick chase. What did the AB chase look like in the Ireland phase? To me it looks like the kicks have landed in about the same spot (i don't know where they were kicked from) but the difference in your images is one is just after the catch, and one is after the tackle has been made. They are always going to look different. The chase v Argentina looks okay, the furtherest infield player is furtherest up, and it looks like they should all be able to cover any runs. Bit lazy on the inside though.
The 2nd pair again we are comparing different parts. The Argie pic the ball hasn't even made it to first receiver, and the D line looks okay, they should have been able to cover with those numbers given the space available. That Ireland pic is at least one pass later, and that D-line looks shit house. Ireland have actually helped us by taking the ball up, he releases early we could be outflanked there.
My main takeaway from the last two is not ALB making a mistake, it's where the fuck are the rest of the players? There are at least 10 ABs inside the 15m line FFS, leaving 2 guys at most, who are 10m+ apart, to defend 5 Argentinian attackers and 30m of space. ALB gambled because he has no choice. Where the fuck is everyone?
The key to beating this Ireland system has always been jamming outside in and keeping the runners from getting out the back. Which is why Ioane is getting a lot of pats on the back, because his spot is the most important. Fundamentally we took Scott McLeod's defense in to the game and it worked. Throw in error after error from Ireland (caused by them looking up and seeing the space they want not there) and we look a million dollars.
We are defending pretty well, though Ireland did get some joy in parts, especially in closer. But their out the back wrap attack went nowhere, and the usual busts in closer from VdF, Doris and Aki rarely happened. Their crisp handling flat in close abandoned them on a wet night with us staying tighter and getting up. Good performance.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
Doesn't know WTF he is talking about, I'd pay 125 quid to watch Ireland at home get their arses kicked by the ABs anytime
I paid 350 and hit the vinegar strokes when Rieko lead the Haka.
Cheap as chips.
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@mariner4life It’s hard to convey everything in stills. I suppose gifs would work better. Maybe another time, depending on how handy I am in making them.
With the first two pictures, I didn’t so much want to compare the exact same phase as the different starting points for the opposition attack. In the Irish example, Tele’a is able to contest the ball and the Irish receiver is immediately tackled. The Irish need to secure the breakdown and, in these three seconds, the NZ defence is able to fully set and prepare for the phase attack. In comparison, the Argentinean backfield of Carreras and Mallia is able to take the ball without any defenders close to them, and the fractured chase allows them to get behind the first upcoming AB defenders. Already, the line is compromised and there isn’t a prepared defensive line to take on the different attacking patterns of the Argentina attack. It’s really interesting to just watch it unfold on video. In the first minute, the AB defence gets systematically dismantled. As a result, Argentina builds confidence in their attack.
With the second pair of pictures, I’d argue that looks are deceiving. While the NZ defensive line is well-set in the Argentina example, what you are looking at is a passive defensive line of 6 AB defenders against a fully set Argentina attack: there’s a pod waiting to take the ball, another one waiting to set behind them and there is Carreras looping behind as a hidden option. So there’s the possibility of tip passes, backdoor passes, and an inside cut to Carreras. What happens, is that Mallia himself just waltzes through the line as the AB defenders are taking all those options into account and are immobilized by them. Being passive and holding off against a Leinster-type attack, with its many passing and blocking options, is a linebreak waiting to happen.
Contrast this to the Irish test where AB defenders are continuously attempting to insert themselves into the Irish passing lanes, instead of passively waiting for the attack to come to them (another good example is the Jordie Barrett intervention in the 74th minute, where he simply runs into the Irish space). What is the result: dropped balls, indecisiveness and an attack which never gets going. When Sititi sprints out of the line like that, he creates a space to run into. But the Irish attack is quite structured so they don’t want to constantly move out of it and the space available leads into more AB defenders and a potential turnover.
The problem for this system is faulty execution, like you see with ALB in the Argentina test. The trigger for his sprint, like Sititi’s, is exactly the same: turnover possession for Argentina (he literally sprints out of line as soon as Lomax loses the ball). But, like I said, he’s too far away from the source to get inside these passing spaces, leaving him stranded. The other AB defenders don’t shoot up alongside him, because I don’t think that’s the system they’re trying to implement. And ALB gambles but he doesn’t gamble enough: he sprints away from his fellow defenders but he stops before getting into the Argentina line. It’s the worst of two worlds. If he is going to go, he needs to make sure he is, at least, able to disrupt the easy overlap rather than create the space for the Argentina attackers to run through.
I thought Ioane was exceptional on Friday but analysing midfield defence takes a lot of work and I’m too lazy for that right now. There’s a massive amount that goes into a successful defence (others have already signalled the disruption of the Irish lineout, for example), so I definitely don’t want to claim that these facets that I highlighted were the crucial factors. It were just some things that stood out to me when watching these two games side-by-side.
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@Mauss Some good defensive disruption from our guys for sure, but I don't think we'd want to be patting ourselves on the back too much - there were a really unusual number of unforced errors from the Irish too. He certainly wasn't alone, but the ginger Frawley knocking it on cold twice springs to mind - you'd think nerves looking at it happen, but pretty sure he was the chap who drop-kicked the win against SA.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I thought Ioane was exceptional on Friday but analysing midfield defence takes a lot of work and I’m too lazy for that right now.
Gregor Paul agrees with you
Gregor Paul: The moment Ioane showed he's a world-class centre
OPINION: Maybe Rieko Ioane should spark a personal feud with everyone he plays.
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@nostrildamus Shit, that's never a good sign.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@nostrildamus Shit, that's never a good sign.
I was reading his article, thinking, am I actually agreeing with it / him for once?!
But yeah he should also be talking up Wallace, given who Wally is named after. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
Some good defensive disruption from our guys for sure, but I don't think we'd want to be patting ourselves on the back too much
I'd certainly agree with that. When looking back at the Argentina game, it's honestly surprising they didn't concede more points. In the Ireland test, I'd say the AB defence was simply good enough to give themselves a shot at winning. It wasn't perfect by any means. Steps in the right direction, though!
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I was reading his article, thinking, am I actually agreeing with it / him for once?!
The bit about Ioane being forbidden to run at training was interesting. Bit extreme from the coaches but Rieko seems to have responded well to it. It's good to see that the noise around him is starting to shift in a more positive direction.
