McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
100% incorrect conclusion for me. What happens when you give McKenzie free reign and he knows he is first choice is good play, with structure, as per the Chiefs - and a guy with the confidence to throw attacking passes when they're on.
The Japan game is what you get when you tell McKenzie that a mediocre past-it Beauden Barrett is being preferred to him for the England game - loose as, trying to score a try with every play.
Beauden Barret used to be an amazing athlete, and a really good fullback. He has always been a dogshit first 5, and now with less pace, he's worse than that. He may look calm, but he's looking like that while doing headless chook stuff like defensive bombs, kicking the ball out on the full, chip-kicking the ball away when we need to retain possession etc etc. I guess he's winning on that crucial body language metric.Except that he was gioven the keys to the kingdom and has been distinctly average 'mercurial' in Razor's words. The top player is never going to play every match and the one match BB played he actually had control, although that's about it. We don't need pizzaz from first fives, we need control, which has been lacking for years in tests.
When DMac get's the chance to prove he's the one, he really shits the bed in Japan, which was a dire performance.
I don't want BB at ten, but I don't want DMac either, he had 8 or 9 games in row to grip it, and didn't. As mentioned above the shit thing is no one else was tried versus the minnows
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it.Oh Mounga lost the spot multiple times, then he threw it away.
no he started v SA in 2022 and kept it through the WC final.
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I would have kept DM at 10. We now have a 10, 12 and 13 who strengths do not include putting people into space.
And I have no problem with Razor wanting RM. We need more options.
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Nothing about Barrett's game has ever screamed 'calm'. He does stupid stuff all the time. Look at him kicking the ball away twice with about 90 seconds to go at the end of one of the Boks matches when NZ needed to score to win. Barrett is as much a headless chook as McKenzie.
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Dmac has been great all year and pretty much responsible for 90% of any of our good attacking play.
For the first time in years we were getting AROUND the rush defense that we have struggled with since 2017.
The Japan game is an anomaly. No surprise he has his shittest game all year the week they had clearly told him Beauden would be preferred for the England game.
I can only hope he gets the 10 jersey back for Ireland/France because I've already seen how Beauden runs our attack against these northern teams for half a decade now. (hint: not good)
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
Which is another way of saying that Mounga couldn't even surpass a shithouse 10 in Barrett for ages.
Like D Mac then who has lost his spot to Barrett who is 2 years older now at 33.
and Mounga who won the spot and did not lose it.Oh Mounga lost the spot multiple times, then he threw it away.
no he started v SA in 2022 and kept it through the WC final.
Well he was first picked for the ABs in 2017, first start in 2018, was given the reigns in 2019 - but if you want to ignore all of that and start the clock halfway through 2022 then sure mate, bang on.
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@Chris genuine question - you're really going hard for Mo'unga at 10. What do you see in him that we're missing?
As you say, it's like we're seeing different players. I know you're hooked into the CHC mafia, but do you really rate Mo'unga that highly?
And the thing I really can't figure out is why he left, knowing that one of his biggest fans would be takign the reins. It staggers me; did he not like the AB environment?
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Mo'unga's game list is in the link below
Started 6 games in 20 (truncated season with Covid)
7 games in 21
8 in 22
9 games in 23 -
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The more I think about the Barrett selection the grumpier I get. It now genuinely looks like Robertson's plan for the All Blacks is simply to bide time until his pet Mo'unga comes back. What a fucking dud move. The legacy of the All Blacks, the most successful team of all time, put on hold while some never-was glorified touch player makes some coin offshore.
He has given D Mac 8 starts in a row and he didn't take the chance.Barrett nah not for me but he needs results on this tour
this is what i dont get and see it mentioned a lot....is barrett actually the difference between wining and loosing? as ive said before its not like we're talking about DC coming back for a few games...im honeslty not far off thinking hes just as likely to lose us a game with a fucking cross field kick in our own 22 or something
we should have game plans that mean we can bring in rookies, hell sopoaga debuted against SA in SA and was almost man of the match, he didnt exactly go on to be a world beater, we should maybe have faith that these guys can also lift for a big game
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@nzzp said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris genuine question - you're really going hard for Mo'unga at 10. What do you see in him that we're missing?
As you say, it's like we're seeing different players. I know you're hooked into the CHC mafia, but do you really rate Mo'unga that highly?
And the thing I really can't figure out is why he left, knowing that one of his biggest fans would be takign the reins. It staggers me; did he not like the AB environment?
Yeah but I am not going hard out for Mounga just that another option is good and I don’t rate Barrett there as I said,
I don’t see D Mac is the answer either.
More responding to the cheap shot of Mounga is a pet shit.
More competition the better I also have mentioned Plummer and Jacomb as potential options in the future.
Money was the factor 4 million for 3 years is not to shabby. -
@Kiwiwomble said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The more I think about the Barrett selection the grumpier I get. It now genuinely looks like Robertson's plan for the All Blacks is simply to bide time until his pet Mo'unga comes back. What a fucking dud move. The legacy of the All Blacks, the most successful team of all time, put on hold while some never-was glorified touch player makes some coin offshore.
He has given D Mac 8 starts in a row and he didn't take the chance.Barrett nah not for me but he needs results on this tour
this is what i dont get and see it mentioned a lot....is barrett actually the difference between wining and loosing? as ive said before its not like we're talking about DC coming back for a few games...im honeslty not far off thinking hes just as likely to lose us a game with a fucking cross field kick in our own 22 or something
we should have game plans that mean we can bring in rookies, hell sopoaga debuted against SA in SA and was almost man of the match, he didnt exactly go on to be a world beater, we should maybe have faith that these guys can also lift for a big game
No Barrett is far from the answer but D Mac for me hasn’t been the answer either I would not pick either,but then who do we pick there is the problem atm.
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@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@nzzp said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris genuine question - you're really going hard for Mo'unga at 10. What do you see in him that we're missing?
As you say, it's like we're seeing different players. I know you're hooked into the CHC mafia, but do you really rate Mo'unga that highly?
And the thing I really can't figure out is why he left, knowing that one of his biggest fans would be takign the reins. It staggers me; did he not like the AB environment?
Money was the factor 4 million for 3 years is not to shabby.
I think it was $2.2 million per year = $6.6 million if he stays for 3 years.
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@Chris It's really far more criticism of Robertson than Mounga. Selecting Barrett is just a bullshit holding pattern. It's not investing in the future, it's not even picking the best player right now - it's picking the old guy to scrape through a few games then bring your favourite back regardless of form / playing Super etc - the criticism of Mounga is just a corollary to that in that he's not exactly Dan Carter, and he is someone who jumped ship for money as a first choice starting all black - so he's not someone you should do that for.
If he picked Plummer, or Jacomb then great - I'd disagree with the selection but at least he'd be trying to build something. But he's not. -
@reprobate problem is, he has gone from having the ability to make some bold selections and if we had any losses, not really shrugged off, but begrudgingly accepted looking at the big picture, to the same boat as Fozzie was where he had suffered losses and was always in damage limitation needing to win but not really pushing the boat out.
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@reprobate Razor will obviously know more than us, but it seems like far from a done deal that Mo'unga really will be back next year. I don't imagine Toyota are just going to let him go without a bit of a fight.
In the meantime, I've been quite pleased with how DMac's gone - and a bit surprised with this selection, though obviously it was telegraphed.
What I do wonder is whether DMac is a bit jaded. It's his first year in 10 hotseat - and that's a pretty searing seat to sit in. There's no doubt that his last couple of starts (vs Oz and Japan) have had a lot more little errors than earlier in the season. Maybe they're nursing him a bit to the end of the year?
Don't think you'd willingly start any of Perofeta, Plummer or Jacomb in these tests. Have any of them had even a minute at 10 for the ABs yet?
Danny Boy had a season and a half playing 12 before they gave him a start at 10. Got to ease people in there - off the bench, vs minnows, and via playing in less pressured positions.
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@JayCee said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
Is RM a done deal, do we know when he's back?
Edit: 2026 his contract expires. Yikes.
jeez....so unlikely to have a truly experience new 10 before the next RWC
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@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris-B I'd love to believe that, but if he were jaded then you would rest him vs Japan.
Maybe - but, maybe they wanted to give him a game in a lower pressure game. It's just a theory.
Seems pretty evident that the plan was that BB would start this England game.
Sir Ted used to have a theory that you couldn't play well in three hard tests in a row, so maybe they'll start DMac vs Ireland and France.
One thing I'm pretty sure about is that the coaches want to win. They didn't have any qualms about picking Ardie, Beaudy and Sam Cane after a season in Japan, and I don't reckon they'd have any qualms about picking RM next year if he's back - without needing to play silly games now.
