All Blacks vs Wallabies I
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.
The Plummer hype needs to die down.
I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.
For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.
The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.
Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).
Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.
A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.
The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.
So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.
Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.
No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it
Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?
If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?
In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.
The Plummer hype needs to die down.
I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.
For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.
The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.
Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).
Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.
A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.
The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.
So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.
Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.
No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it
Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?
If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?
In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?
I have no faith in Perofeta. He couldn't even get past Plummer at the Blues. Until proven otherwise I don't see him as anything more than a utility, and I think there is greater potential in a few others
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.
The Plummer hype needs to die down.
I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.
For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.
The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.
Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).
Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.
A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.
The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.
So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.
Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.
No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.
Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.
Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it
Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?
If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?
In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?
I have no faith in Perofeta. He couldn't even get past Plummer at the Blues. Until proven otherwise I don't see him as anything more than a utility, and I think there is greater potential in a few others
Yeah Perofeta is not the answer, I'm hoping the only reason he made the ABs was because of MacDonald. Let's hope we don't see him again.
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Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.
We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?
You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
We need to reward Super Rugby form
The main argument is that he didn't have much Super form. In a dominant team he wasn't exactly dominant so when his name was read out in the first squad of the year it definitely turned heads.
Love was by far the better fullback in Super Rugby and deserves a crack before Perofeta gets another opportunity. I'm not saying Perofeta won't get another opportunity but it would be nice to see him carve up Super Rugby before that opportunity to wear the black jersey presents itself again.
From what I saw of the Blues and how Plummer guided them to a title, I'd much prefer him in the 10 jersey at this point if you are comparing him to Perofeta as a 10.
Perofeta also comes across as a bit of a meek character, I don't think that's what the ABs need right now. Plummer seems to have a bit of dog in him and I think that could serve him well if he makes the step up to international footy.
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Plummer displayed the qualities of a test 10 this season.
Smart decision making
Smart tactical kicking
Excellent under the high ball
Has a knack of kicking clutch goals
Whilst he's also a big body he's also a better athlete than given credit for.
His punting this season really improved - noticeable length on his exits.
He deserves a chance to see what he can do.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.
We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?
You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.
That last part was exactly what I was going to write. And if we learn anything from RWC, one or two 10s is risky business.
I'd add that while I am not sure where Perofeta is stronger on a good day than DMac at 10, at 15 he has (and surprisingly to me at this level) looked like one of our most composed and effective fullbacks
Early days, of course.
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Nb I hope this doesn't become a provincial squabble. Would like to see Love at 15 too. Surely there is more license to try various 15s than say an inner back.
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Maybe someone should ask Vern who he prefers at 10.
Does he do breakfast? Or just feast on small sharks during an early morning swim in the Waitemata. -
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.
We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?
You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.
If we're just talking about Plummer I'm all for giving him a proper crack. They will learn nothing if they throw him on with the other subs for 20 scrappy minutes
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If we win the first test against the Wallabies in Sydney I'd love this backline to get a run in Wellington.
- Ratima 10. Plummer 11. Clarke 12. ALB 13. Proctor 14. Jordan 15. Love.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
If we win the first test against the Wallabies in Sydney I'd love this backline to get a run in Wellington.
- Ratima 10. Plummer 11. Clarke 12. Barrett 13. Proctor 14. Jordan 15. Love.
I don't think Jordie has been that well that he's locked in. ALB might be worth a look as a starter, certainly has a better passing game.
Best combination IMO would be ALB and RI.
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I have a strong preference for Plummer as the back-up 10 ahead of Barrett.
Having said that, there is no way I would be starting Plummer in any game soon, because McKenzie and our back combinations are not settled in to anywhere near an adequate standard yet: if you haven't got your A team sorted out what's the point in working on your B team? -
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
I have a strong preference for Plummer as the back-up 10 ahead of Barrett.
Having said that, there is no way I would be starting Plummer in any game soon, because McKenzie and our back combinations are not settled in to anywhere near an adequate standard yet: if you haven't got your A team sorted out what's the point in working on your B team?I broadly agree with your point that our first choice need to develop together, but at some point we need a look at the other squad members just in case they're a legitimately better option.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
If we win the first test against the Wallabies in Sydney I'd love this backline to get a run in Wellington.
- Ratima 10. Plummer 11. Clarke 12. Barrett 13. Proctor 14. Jordan 15. Love.
I don't think Jordie has been that well that he's locked in. ALB might be worth a look as a starter, certainly has a better passing game.
Best combination IMO would be ALB and RI.
The best combo we've seen this year (albeit against Fiji) was ALB and Proctor. Surely they deserve another crack together.
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i think we need to get over the idea of the bench just being the second best players
in some game at least the staring team just needs to be cohesive, make their tackles, kick goals, play for territory...it doesnt need to be razzle dazzle
pick combinations of players that know each other to start....and then have some game breakers on the bench, people like DMac and Savea can really change game or put one to bed in the final 20-30min
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
i think we need to get over the idea of the bench just being the second best players
in some game at least the staring team just needs to be cohesive, make their tackles, kick goals, play for territory...it doesnt need to be razzle dazzle
pick combinations of players that know each other to start....and then have some game breakers on the bench, people like DMac and Savea can really change game or put one to bed in the final 20-30min
We should be picking a bench with x-factor. Maybe something along the lines of.
- Aumua 17. Numia 18. Tosi 19. Walker-Leawere 20. Lakai 21. Perenara 22. J Barrett 23. Naholo
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Gunner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
This talk of sacking Razor is madness.
Yep we’ve lost too many games for anyones liking, however i can see clear improvement in tactics and the way we’re playing.
He’s slowly but surely bringing in fresh talent, though I’d like him to be a bit more ruthless with some of the underperforming senior players.
Boks are a good side, with the majority having been together for years, know how to win (much like our 2011-2015 ABs teams.
It’s not all doom and gloom, if we’re still making the same mistakes and losing close games in another 12 months then it’ll need a re-think.
Well it's clearly in the context of the last few years where there were constant calls to sack Fozzie even after he managed to not lose a RC at all.
The posters who were ready to string him up can't complain now when the same standards are being applied to the Messiah.
I'm not sure I'm seeing this "clear" improvement you can see.
(This is not me saying he should be sacked, just pointing out that in the context of the Fern over the last few years it's not as "madness" as you may think).
Foster had greater players and worse tactics against weaker teams.
And years not months.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
i think we need to get over the idea of the bench just being the second best players
in some game at least the staring team just needs to be cohesive, make their tackles, kick goals, play for territory...it doesnt need to be razzle dazzle
pick combinations of players that know each other to start....and then have some game breakers on the bench, people like DMac and Savea can really change game or put one to bed in the final 20-30min
We should be picking a bench with x-factor. Maybe something along the lines of.
- Aumua 17. Numia 18. Tosi 19. Walker-Leawere 20. Lakai 21. Perenara 22. J Barrett 23. Naholo
your in wrong thread
we are picking all Blacks bench not the hurricames
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I don't want them to ring the changes at all, especially in the backs. We need Ratima-DMac-Jordie-Rieko getting as much game time together as they can. Making them play SA in SA and then dropping them for the Wallabies is 1) not fair to them at all (people are still referencing the Fiji game as if that meant anything at all) and 2) doesn't give them a chance to build combinations against easier opposition.
Guys like Proctor and Plummer can all ride the pine and get minutes off the bench to get them some experience playing in black.
On the back three, it's pretty clear now there's a big gap on the wings between Clarke/Jordan and the rest, so we have to hope like hell those two are fit against the better teams. Reece and Telea are adequate backups but don't provide anywhere near the same threat.
The only position that I see as wide open is the 15 jumper. Beauden's experience counts for a lot, but he's been too inconsistent this season. The injury to Perofeta was a shame as he was looking very good there, so I'd like to see him given another go first. If he struggles, then Love would be the next cab off the rank.
