NPC Crowds
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Its certainly much worse than back in the day if You mean 1993 when we challenged for the shield. Even then the big teams (Auckland) were robbing the provinces of talent though.
On your point, I’d make the argument that in the 2000s the competition was already in decline and that efforts to strengthen the relationship between the NPC to local rugby have been pretty weak and relatively ineffective.
I had a quick look to see if I could find any data on attendance figures and funnily enough it turned up articles from the mid 2000s highlighting exactly the same discussion we are having now. The inability for NZ rugby to develop its systems over time is the real scandal here, but that gets us back to ground we’ve covered in other places to death.
With that in mind, on the current topic, my feeling is that if Waikato played games at places like Te Rapa, Matamata, TA (of course!), and other local communities they might be able to reduce the costs of running games and get more locals out. However, I think Dan is right - it is easy to just stop things and turn on the Telly so its not just the monetary cost, there has to be a reason to get people out and I’m not sure if location alone will do it.
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@gt12
Yes
in the amateur days Auck, Well, Cant poached players from the country provs.
And Otago had the Varsity PE faculty. Otago University club produced a huge number of All Blacks.
Not saying its the way to go, but amateur rugby was pretty good! -
The heyday of the modern NPC was in the 1980s and 1990s when there was no SR, or its earlier iterations were merely pre-season games. The competition was played after club rugby so was the only show in town. I remember going to games where Waikato B or the U21s played in the curtain-raiser. It's SR that has fucked everything up, and NZR has allowed that to happen with little foresight and planning.
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@gt12 said in NPC Crowds:
Its certainly much worse than back in the day if You mean 1993 when we challenged for the shield. Even then the big teams (Auckland) were robbing the provinces of talent though.
On your point, I’d make the argument that in the 2000s the competition was already in decline and that efforts to strengthen the relationship between the NPC to local rugby have been pretty weak and relatively ineffective.
I had a quick look to see if I could find any data on attendance figures and funnily enough it turned up articles from the mid 2000s highlighting exactly the same discussion we are having now. The inability for NZ rugby to develop its systems over time is the real scandal here, but that gets us back to ground we’ve covered in other places to death.
With that in mind, on the current topic, my feeling is that if Waikato played games at places like Te Rapa, Matamata, TA (of course!), and other local communities they might be able to reduce the costs of running games and get more locals out. However, I think Dan is right - it is easy to just stop things and turn on the Telly so its not just the monetary cost, there has to be a reason to get people out and I’m not sure if location alone will do it.
Yeah, the 'big' teams were robbing the provinces back then, that 1993 team had a bunch of them who were from elsewhere and played provincial rugby before representing Waikato - Purvis, Jerram, Buck Anderson, Bitchell, Cooper, Warlow, Miller.
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
But agree with yours and Dan's point about it's easy to watch it on TV. I don't necessarily agree with the contention that NZ systems are totally shit. The same systems oversaw one of our most successful periods, and even in our supposed worst ever period we were an inch (and some shit reffing) away from pulling off a RWC win with the Fern acknowledged worst coach, nay, worst person to ever walk the earth as coach.
The biggest dent has been the Saffas going north, and that was really out of our hands despite what the Saffas , their media, and some posters say.
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
One year too soon, Foxy was there in 1993.
@Bovidae Cheers, forgot he was a Wellingtonian.
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
And as a former Nua man didn't I know it,. They actually went after a couple of Nua players. Cullen was also taken etc, Mark Shaw. Geez the like of Frank Oliver etc moved around quite a bit, it's always been the case. There has always been poaching , but obviously more sonce game went pro. Comparing anything with 1993 is perhaps wasting our time really. Hell Super was basically made up of players from local provinces up until 2011. Hell in the early late 80s/ 90s apart from Carlos and Cullen , we had at least another 3 players off top of my head that resided in the Nua and played in Wellington or Manawatu!
You remember All Black lock Murray Pierce? Played for Wellington while AB always lived in the Nua. Anyone who thinks it anything new in the NPC has not been following game very long!
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@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it. -
@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
and Harbour
More players in the last amateur AB side than any other union - Jones, Barry, Little, Bunce, Rush, Osbourne Those in bold scored 3/4 tries. Who else but Jonah got the other?
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@Dan54 said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble I suppose could say the same with super. I genuinely think those that follow the NPC do so because they support their team, and not just there t0 see players who will go higher, but as with super any team you support (and at club level) you want players from your team to step up to next level. Well I do and most I speak to do.
I do think games we watch as a neutral is probably where you got more interest on who will step up**. I have commented a few times on Otago and Southland and how happy Jamie Joseph will be etc, though Southern man ,yourself etc would no doubt be looking at how team going against rivals and ladder etc first.**
The comp can be enjoyed for more then one reason I think.
I can assure you I at most Naki games and crowd is there to watch the Naki win firstly and foremost!The development of the lads is my top interest during the NPC. Results very much secondary. Knowing that the young players identified as leading the Landers are showing rapid improvement is massively reassuring. I'd much rather see that than four or five ring ins dominate, the team win and the young landers not move forward.
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@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
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Right!
From a purely commercial point of view, and that is how it is nowdays, very easy to hype up and promote a side with six current All Blacks!
The lack of current All Blacks in the present NPC just cruels it as a legit sports competition.
Take the star top 30 or so players out of it for 3 or 4 months - Crazy business model!
None of the other football codes would ever do anything like this.
And general joe public is now very aware, and not buying defective product. -
Haha
Yeah it is fucked up, and been that way for awhile.
But it looks like it is going to sort of come to a head in the next few seasons.Highlanders/Otago probably highlights the problem more than most.
There is no way the Highlanders could survive without large outside financial support.
It kind of is just "jobs for the boys", and most of them just leave town after they have been paid.
Imagine if they just gave all that money directly to the Otago RU instead, and let them spread the love around.
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@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
Right!
From a purely commercial point of view, and that is how it is nowdays, very easy to hype up and promote a side with six current All Blacks!
The lack of current All Blacks in the present NPC just cruels it as a legit sports competition.
Take the star top 30 or so players out of it for 3 or 4 months - Crazy business model!
None of the other football codes would ever do anything like this.
And general joe public is now very aware, and not buying defective product.You obviously haven't seen how it goes up north when 6Ns is on! They play without their internationals,probably without top 180 players. Same as our clubs that are without super players.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
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@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals. -
@Dan54 said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals.I'm not suggesting he was an Otago player. But for all intents and purposes, he was a 14 year Dunedin resident. Who was, I'm pretty sure crowned Otago Sportsman of the year in 2021. He lived the Dunedin life. Supported the community and bought into the wider Otago way of life. For kids growing up in Dunedin, and the Otago region he was an idol. They didn't see him as a Manawatu man at all. They saw him as a Highlander, as a player who wore blue and gold. Same goes for Manawatu youngsters I'm sure too. He influenced two areas. I'm sure if you asked a young Otago halfback they would say Smith was a 'local' icon
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@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it.Has the creation of the SA franchises adversely impacted the Currie Cup?
If so, why hasn't it had the upstream effects on the Springboks' success?
Or is it just that they are enjoying a "Golden Generation" like we did in the 2010s, notwithstanding similar structural issues?
