NPC Crowds
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@gt12 yep mate I not meaning for finding players. But I genuinely believe the players in general need a playing stepping stone, and it's something Barnes the Naki coach talks about.
Not taking away from fact that academies find young players etc, but I truly believe they learn a hell of a lot more on the field playing a higher and more experienced players. In actual fact I don't think many NPC teams have academies as such, they just come through a general age grade system rep teams. so basically we agre on the need for higher level rugby.
But really this thread is discussing crowds more than the comp.
As I say I a real fan of NPC, think it a great comp, and like anything when we talking about crowds , I think we all will find excuse to go to the games or not go to games. As I said I comfortable with those who choose to stay home, as they find it easier, or more comfortable. -
@gt12 Just one other thing mate for stepping stones, I have a mate who's grandson was in Chiefs academy, didn't crack a NPC team on regular basis and so never made it into super squad. So really seems in general is a stepping stone between academy and super?
He is looking at perhaps USA or Europe to get contract (at 2nd tier etc) -
So, two potential issues here:
- he isn't good enough
- the current system doesn’t have sufficient alignment to develop talent
I know I agree with one of those.
Btw, you look at the Taranaki team and very few of their young stars (3/5 you mentioned I think) seem to actually be from Taranaki, so the NPC teams are just working as feeder clubs for the cities anyway.
Edit: I bring this up as one issue with crowds is that many of these guys in the competition are ring-ins from other places. The actual local connection is more and more frayed every year.
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@gt12 Rona, Grindlay and JRK are all Taranaki products.
As someone who sees a lot of 1st XV rugby, particularly Super 8 and CNI, I get to see a lot of the players who now play in the NPC (and SR and ABs). It's also one of the reasons I am happy to see PUs promote local talent instead of signing someone from Aust or Europe.
So for me there is a provincial connection. I acknowledge I will be in the minority.
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@Bovidae said in NPC Crowds:
@gt12 Rona, Grindlay and JRK are all Taranaki products.
As someone who sees a lot of 1st XV rugby, particularly Super 8 and CNI, I get to see a lot of the players who now play in the NPC (and SR and ABs). It's also one of the reasons I am happy to see PUs promote local talent instead of signing someone from Aust or Europe.
So for me there is a provincial connection. I acknowledge I will be in the minority.
Apologies, i didn’t realize Grindlay left and returned.
I like the idea of a ‘local’ connection, but this model just doesn’t work.
And now the gap between NPC > Super > International is getting wider.
I think the crowds will show up for the right product, but right now the product isn’t that. In the short term I think they can just address the location of games to give relevance, but the bigger issues remain.
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@gt12 said in NPC Crowds:
So, two potential issues here:
- he isn't good enough
- the current system doesn’t have sufficient alignment to develop talent
I know I agree with one of those.
Btw, you look at the Taranaki team and very few of their young stars (3/5 you mentioned I think) seem to actually be from Taranaki, so the NPC teams are just working as feeder clubs for the cities anyway.
Edit: I bring this up as one issue with crowds is that many of these guys in the competition are ring-ins from other places. The actual local connection is more and more frayed every year.
Actually a lot of provincial teams are feeder clubs for city academies mate Perofeta is actually a Wanganui boy, Grindlay is a kid from Manaia. It all gets complicated because of scholarships etc. I mean of course NPC teams (like super teams) get players from outside etc.
As I say I genuinely believe it a great stepping stone between club and super rugby, same as I believe super is stepping stone to test rugby.
On mates grandson, no he obviously wasn't good enough to make NPC teams, but is my point, was good enough to make academy etc.. If we actually followed your point of though of course we probably shouldn't botther with club rugby, just pick kids from school and put them in academies?
We probably just see things in different light, you anti NPC and I pro NPC mate. And nothing I say will convince you it is important for players to have different levels of rugby to develop, and nothing you say will convince me of opposite. So I will just continue to watch and enjoy it, and you can do other, and no problems for either really is it? -
@gt12 said in NPC Crowds:
@Bovidae said in NPC Crowds:
@gt12 Rona, Grindlay and JRK are all Taranaki products.
As someone who sees a lot of 1st XV rugby, particularly Super 8 and CNI, I get to see a lot of the players who now play in the NPC (and SR and ABs). It's also one of the reasons I am happy to see PUs promote local talent instead of signing someone from Aust or Europe.
So for me there is a provincial connection. I acknowledge I will be in the minority.
Apologies, i didn’t realize Grindlay left and returned.
I like the idea of a ‘local’ connection, but this model just doesn’t work.
And now the gap between NPC > Super > International is getting wider.
I think the crowds will show up for the right product, but right now the product isn’t that. In the short term I think they can just address the location of games to give relevance, but the bigger issues remain.
I agree there are issues with it , but really the big thing is with crowds I genuinely think it more about the ease of watching on tv and a generation who have found that's easiest way to watch sport.
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i think the NPC needs to be appreciated and marketed as something to enjoy and celebrate in its own right, we dont go watch a club game just because we might see some up and comer, its enjoyable in it own right, stand in the sun with a beer somewhere often close to home and therefore easy.....all the talk is about how the NPC connects in with other comps or player progression...makes the games seem like training sessions and therefore not something very important
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@Kiwiwomble I suppose could say the same with super. I genuinely think those that follow the NPC do so because they support their team, and not just there t0 see players who will go higher, but as with super any team you support (and at club level) you want players from your team to step up to next level. Well I do and most I speak to do.
I do think games we watch as a neutral is probably where you got more interest on who will step up. I have commented a few times on Otago and Southland and how happy Jamie Joseph will be etc, though Southern man ,yourself etc would no doubt be looking at how team going against rivals and ladder etc first.
The comp can be enjoyed for more then one reason I think.
I can assure you I at most Naki games and crowd is there to watch the Naki win firstly and foremost! -
@gt12 said in NPC Crowds:
So, two potential issues here:
- he isn't good enough
- the current system doesn’t have sufficient alignment to develop talent
I know I agree with one of those.
Btw, you look at the Taranaki team and very few of their young stars (3/5 you mentioned I think) seem to actually be from Taranaki, so the NPC teams are just working as feeder clubs for the cities anyway.
Edit: I bring this up as one issue with crowds is that many of these guys in the competition are ring-ins from other places. The actual local connection is more and more frayed every year.
Is it any worse now than it was back in the day?
Recently the 2000 NPC final has been talked up on the forum somewhere and the Welly v Canty teams that contested that match had lots of non locals.
On a rough count 10 of the starting Wellington team and 9 of the starting Canterbury team weren't locals.
In last years final 8 of the starting Pies team were locals. I assume the Naki had a lot of locals too.
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Its certainly much worse than back in the day if You mean 1993 when we challenged for the shield. Even then the big teams (Auckland) were robbing the provinces of talent though.
On your point, I’d make the argument that in the 2000s the competition was already in decline and that efforts to strengthen the relationship between the NPC to local rugby have been pretty weak and relatively ineffective.
I had a quick look to see if I could find any data on attendance figures and funnily enough it turned up articles from the mid 2000s highlighting exactly the same discussion we are having now. The inability for NZ rugby to develop its systems over time is the real scandal here, but that gets us back to ground we’ve covered in other places to death.
With that in mind, on the current topic, my feeling is that if Waikato played games at places like Te Rapa, Matamata, TA (of course!), and other local communities they might be able to reduce the costs of running games and get more locals out. However, I think Dan is right - it is easy to just stop things and turn on the Telly so its not just the monetary cost, there has to be a reason to get people out and I’m not sure if location alone will do it.
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@gt12
Yes
in the amateur days Auck, Well, Cant poached players from the country provs.
And Otago had the Varsity PE faculty. Otago University club produced a huge number of All Blacks.
Not saying its the way to go, but amateur rugby was pretty good! -
The heyday of the modern NPC was in the 1980s and 1990s when there was no SR, or its earlier iterations were merely pre-season games. The competition was played after club rugby so was the only show in town. I remember going to games where Waikato B or the U21s played in the curtain-raiser. It's SR that has fucked everything up, and NZR has allowed that to happen with little foresight and planning.
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@gt12 said in NPC Crowds:
Its certainly much worse than back in the day if You mean 1993 when we challenged for the shield. Even then the big teams (Auckland) were robbing the provinces of talent though.
On your point, I’d make the argument that in the 2000s the competition was already in decline and that efforts to strengthen the relationship between the NPC to local rugby have been pretty weak and relatively ineffective.
I had a quick look to see if I could find any data on attendance figures and funnily enough it turned up articles from the mid 2000s highlighting exactly the same discussion we are having now. The inability for NZ rugby to develop its systems over time is the real scandal here, but that gets us back to ground we’ve covered in other places to death.
With that in mind, on the current topic, my feeling is that if Waikato played games at places like Te Rapa, Matamata, TA (of course!), and other local communities they might be able to reduce the costs of running games and get more locals out. However, I think Dan is right - it is easy to just stop things and turn on the Telly so its not just the monetary cost, there has to be a reason to get people out and I’m not sure if location alone will do it.
Yeah, the 'big' teams were robbing the provinces back then, that 1993 team had a bunch of them who were from elsewhere and played provincial rugby before representing Waikato - Purvis, Jerram, Buck Anderson, Bitchell, Cooper, Warlow, Miller.
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
But agree with yours and Dan's point about it's easy to watch it on TV. I don't necessarily agree with the contention that NZ systems are totally shit. The same systems oversaw one of our most successful periods, and even in our supposed worst ever period we were an inch (and some shit reffing) away from pulling off a RWC win with the Fern acknowledged worst coach, nay, worst person to ever walk the earth as coach.
The biggest dent has been the Saffas going north, and that was really out of our hands despite what the Saffas , their media, and some posters say.
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
One year too soon, Foxy was there in 1993.
@Bovidae Cheers, forgot he was a Wellingtonian.
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
And as a former Nua man didn't I know it,. They actually went after a couple of Nua players. Cullen was also taken etc, Mark Shaw. Geez the like of Frank Oliver etc moved around quite a bit, it's always been the case. There has always been poaching , but obviously more sonce game went pro. Comparing anything with 1993 is perhaps wasting our time really. Hell Super was basically made up of players from local provinces up until 2011. Hell in the early late 80s/ 90s apart from Carlos and Cullen , we had at least another 3 players off top of my head that resided in the Nua and played in Wellington or Manawatu!
You remember All Black lock Murray Pierce? Played for Wellington while AB always lived in the Nua. Anyone who thinks it anything new in the NPC has not been following game very long!
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@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it. -
@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
and Harbour
More players in the last amateur AB side than any other union - Jones, Barry, Little, Bunce, Rush, Osbourne Those in bold scored 3/4 tries. Who else but Jonah got the other?
