Springboks vs All Blacks 2
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@voodoo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Since forever when we made a line break, my immediate thought was “we’re on here!”
These days the first thing I think is “fuck, we’re gonna get isolated and turn it over”
How did this happen?
Yeah I think that a bit if it's a forward.
If it's a back the first thing I think is 'fuck they're going to kick it away'.
If it's against SA, then it's 'won't be a try they'll infringe'.Jokes aside, if we fix the ball running problem, the support play is next in line. There were a couple of times when Sititi made a half break and had hands free and... nobody there.
Taylor is still good at this, props not so much, our current locks are considerably worse at it than Whitelock and Retallick were, and most importantly it's not Cane or Savea's game - but it totally was for McCaw and Read, Zinny, So'oialo, Kronfeld, Michael Jones... forwards running with backs and the continuity it provides is a huge part of our historic success.
Hoskins seems like the guy with that skillset, if we want it. -
Jake White: I'm amazed at how naive the All Blacks have become
For as long as I’ve been coaching, the one thing the All Blacks have always possessed is an innate understanding of the game...
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@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Jake White: I'm amazed at how naive the All Blacks have become
For as long as I’ve been coaching, the one thing the All Blacks have always possessed is an innate understanding of the game...
That was good from White until the last paragraph where he went all RWC is all that really matters - but as a Saffa that is expected I guess.
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@voodoo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Since forever when we made a line break, my immediate thought was “we’re on here!”
These days the first thing I think is “fuck, we’re gonna get isolated and turn it over”
How did this happen?
yeah, hadnt clicked but youre right
i think maybe its a bit of, in the past when we made a break it was more planned, and so support was anticipating it and therefore on their shoulder.....then we relly leaned into the idea of broken play, no structure, attack from anywhere....and our own players are getting caught by surprise when we make a half break...and theyre just not there...or not quite there and we still try and make the pass or we get isolated
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@DMack said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@pakman
Love to see another angle. Looked over on the only angle we could see. He really should have made thatQuite tricky. Had the posts been higher pretty sure it would have hit them. Having watched it a few times think it would have hit inside.
According to the Laws, if above the top of sticks touchie has to make judgement as to whether or not it would have gone through. TMO job? -
@antipodean said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
First half:
Carley does a good job setting the tone by penalising Williams for pissing about at the ruckk.
Ensuing scrum Lomax sets up too high and from the start Ox Nche has him twisted, gets further under him, drives him up and the All Blacks scrum goes backwards.
In fact Bongi drove down on Lomax's left shoulder and Ox up on right and Vaa'i seemed to slip off ass.
Tele’a with a loose carry and loses it too easily in a collision with South African Jesus.
Nice kick on a tight angle by Jordie narrowly misses a 50-22. South Africa with a lineout just outside their 22. Vaa'i knocks it back on AB side but it rolls into touch.
All Black pattern appears to have the shortest man on the team covering cross kicks as a second fullback. Twice now McKenzie has been outjumped.
All Blacks with a scrum, Ardie runs off the back to set up a ruck five metres short of halfway and the very next phase McKenzie kicks a contestable for Reece that he doesn't secure.
South Africa kick long and Tele'a fumbles it into touch back up the field where the scrum was. Black secures the lineout from South African overthrow and a series of excellent runs, direct and then sweeping across the field gets the All Blacks to within a few metres of the Springbok line. If this is the All Black attack Leon didn't want, it's good he's gone.
South African, could be Jasper Wiese, gets a turnover, is on his back turtle like exposed and Ratima is more interested in looking at Carley rather than doing anything about it. Hope this isn't the benefit of having the more experienced TJP in the squad mentoring the young lad.
Reece is much slower than Kolbe.
Jordan shows McKenzie how to jump and sets off down the wing, kicks ahead and falls over South African Jesus. de Allende cleans up by pushing it over the sideline. From the lineout Savea puts Codie into a gap and Codie does his best Cullen impersonation. Ratima in support is tackled early by Wiese and Carley awards New Zealand a penalty and Wiese a yellow card. Should've been a penalty try. New Zealand take three points.
Have to give it to Boks, when they shell a yellow card it's a cynical calculation to save five or seven. A penalty try would not have been unreasonable.
Reece chases the exit kick and decides his best input is to clatter into le Roux without ever making an attempt to regather the ball. Receives a deserved yellow card.
South Africa kick to the line and do a tricky move sweeping back to the blindside. Scott Barrett makes his first appearance that I've noticed by winning a turnover penalty. Jordie rewards his brother's effort by making a grand total of 15m with his kick.
Aumua comes on for Taylor who looks to be off for a HIA. This is a loss because Codie has been excellent thus far. With the change in hooker South Africa win the lineout and Kolbe waltzes through some disorganised defence, ineffective tackles and with only the dependable Jordan in defence to beat, Sam Cane again saves the day with a superman tackle from behind 15m out. South Africa thankfully fumble the ball and it's a scrum.
Aumua and Lomax double team Bongi and AB scrum goes forward.
Lineout and Mbonambi predictably needs a rest.
Ardie gives away a stupid penalty, South Africa opt to go for a lineout five metres out and NZ engage early. Carley doesn't notice and a phase or two later Cane comes up with a turnover in front of the posts.
27th minute and we have a scrum. Lomax sets much better and Ox Nche can't get lower without eating grass, while Williams turns Malherbe 90°. South African scrum goes backwards but they get the ball out.
Great scrum with Frans in deep trouble and Bongi forced to bail.
Two rucks later Aumua forces a knock on and Codie comes back onto the field.
Penalty for not rolling away quickly enough at a ruck and McKenzie kicks another. This time from the restart exit, Reece, lesson learned, decides to let le Roux land with the ball and then hit him. le Roux flings it back inside before he gets bundled out and South Africa knock on. Bit of a kicking duel, le Roux gets outjumped by McKenzie and Jordan aimlessly pumps it down the middle to Pollard who runs it back. Ardie is an assistant tackler according to Carley and gets penalised for not releasing.
VERY margnal call leads to Boks' only points of half.
Wiese runs down the blindside of a scrum, Sititi misses and Ardie makes a good covering tackle. Ratima goes straight over the ball and wins a clear turnover penalty. Messy lineout and Ratima kicks from the base of a ruck. Pollard sees space behind Reece who is covering Kriel and Kolbe. Ioane comes flying across to secure the ball.
Sititi finally gets his hands on the ball and makes a good run. Tele'a ignores players out to his left
Not sure he had a clear pass.
and play breaks down. A missed no look pop pass out the back from Sititi, McKenzie gathers, hesitates and throws a ball behind Ioane who knocks on trying to catch it. Another promising attack falls apart because of timing and accuracy.
Williams tackles/ impedes Ox Nche without the ball leaving Codie free to get over Mbonambi and win a turnover. Ox should've been an option on the inside or the cleaner at the tackle. Not sure why Carley didn't give a penalty there, possibly because Nche stayed on his feet and was late?
Hot on attack Pollard secures a turnover. Carley ignores he's offside and the ball is still within the ruck. But he gets dumped into touch by Ardie and Jordan. NZ with a lineout 10m out. Sititi takes the lineout, backs up with some good carries, South Africa predictably infringe at the ruck and the All Blacks kick the penalty to go into halftime 3 - 9 up.
Now this is an important example of the lack of feel of leaders. Sure penalty is a gimme, but take the scrum. It's 10m out and dead in front. We monstered Boks in three of last four scrums, so very good chance of penalty, but more important their loosies have to stay bound so defence compromised. ABs should have backed themselves to take five, which would probably become seven.
13 - 3 was what ABs deserved after poor Boks half.
So after a false start the All Blacks scrum is gaining ascendancy . Lomax carrying well. Sititi is growing into the game nicely. Cane is making tackles and cleaning up the failings of others. Ardie is giving away penalties but trying. Jordie won't give the ball to Ioane while Vaa'i is the best lock on the park. Codie is having a storming game. Jordan is practically invisible and both wings are a clear step down from last week. McKenzie is having no positive effect on the game at all.
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@OomPB said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Nienaber is with Leinster these days. He left us with an excellent defensive system. You can see his work at the Stormers aswell. The Springboks defense has been excellent since 2018. That was the difference between test 1 & 2.
The stats showed the Boks missed 37 tackles in the 2nd test.
I must admit that didn’t seem right and it didn’t feel like we had besten 37 defenders.
Not sure if this is high because of the way it is recorded. Someone shooting out of the line ramps up the no. Of missed tackles?
One thing the Boks have always had is an amazing scramble defence so even if you do beat a defender then there are plenty of other Boks flying across to mow you down.
I thought in test 1 the Boks defence didn’t look as intense and lacked the line speed we have seen in the past
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On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
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@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
It's bullshit, if Justin Marshall was playing today he'd be sent off in the first 10 mins. That penalty on Sunday was utter bullshit. The Springboks player was lying all over our side of the ruck, TJ had every right to shout for a penalty. Refs are far too entitled these days and they are the biggest issue with International rugby IMO.
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Agree that penalty was complete horseshit and showed a serious lack of composure from the ref.
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@reprobate you think a major test between SA and the All Blacks is the place to set a new precedent where yappy halfbacks calling for penalties can not only be penalised, but sent from the field? Or, far more likely, it's a complete lack of composure from the ref and we won't see any other players penalised for the same thing. I say that because in the same test the SA 10 gave the TJ a spray and didn't even get talked to let alone penalised. Will Jordan also gave the ref his thoughts after being called for a knock on, but no warning? No penalty?
Like sure, penalise players that call for penalties if they think that's the correct response (I don't think it is), but do it consistently to all players across the whole test.
Try not to let your dislike of TJP cloud your judgement, we all get pissed at him hence the name Flapanara, but it's not a penalty offense unless he tries to insult the ref in some way, which he didn't.
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@No-Quarter refs, not ref, and they didn't send him from the field.
No, of course it's not the ideal place for it, and of course I would like to see consistency.Nevertheless, it is a blight on the game, TJ is the worst serial offender I can think of, and I'm always going to be pleased to see it addressed.
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@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
It's bullshit, if Justin Marshall was playing today he'd be sent off in the first 10 mins. That penalty on Sunday was utter bullshit. The Springboks player was lying all over our side of the ruck, TJ had every right to shout for a penalty. Refs are far too entitled these days and they are the biggest issue with International rugby IMO.
Virtually all 30 players on the field will yell to the ref if they see something like a knock or head clash.
Just seems that the refs had heard of his reputation and were going to crack down on him hard.
Given the evidence we have, it’s not really penalisable (word?!) what he did. Given that he was the only one he got treated like that he was singled out.
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@pakman said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@antipodean said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Second half.Jordie secures the kickoff. Good run by Sititi gets us outside the 22. McKenzie doesn't want the ball so narrows the available angle by passing to Jordie who punts downfield.
de Allende gets tackled by Vaa'i whose locking partner is straight over the ball and wins a penalty. McKenzie goes for a kick 56m out. Hits it wide and short.
Another thoughtless decision. It's a speculative kick, but the key is that ball goes over dead ball line so we get it kicked back to us 30m up the field. On any proper consideration give it straight to Jordie.
South Africa comes out of the change shed with an entirely different game. Passing, running and finding space.
At 44 minutes a metre forward pass by Boks on halfway missed. Ought to have been Black scrum in centre of field. In context of game a huge miss by officials.
All Blacks scrambling in defence. Less than five minutes of play and South Africa replace a winger and hooker.
South Africa batter away at the line and Etzebeth is clearly short but advantage for Williams for being offside. South Africa try again from a maul formed off a lineout. All Blacks stop this one from moving forward, Marx goes off the back and is tackled immediately by Taylor. Cane comes in for a Kwagga style turnover but Carley says that's only permissible for players wearing green despite Cane leaving it as soon as he went off his feet.
Cane didn't try for ball, but rolled out of ruck having taken a crawl forward. Is that illegal in act of rolling away?
South Africa try again and again their maul goes nowhere but a series of hitups around the corner results in South African Jesus doing enough between Cane and Ioane to stretch out and place the ball over the line.
Noticed AB forwards were slow to move to left of ruck at least twice.
South Africa take the lead 10 - 9 with a successful conversion and TJP comes onto the field because quite clearly this has all been Ratima's fault.
To make room for ALB (why?), Ioane is moved to the wing. Ioane makes ground when someone finally passes him the ball and Jordie immediately gives away a penalty by flying into the ruck, going off his feet and cleaning out only himself. For some reason he looks mystified.
It would have made more sense at that point to move Telea or Jordan to 14 (see below).
Malherbe, Weise and Pollard are tired, so they get a rest.
Contestable kick put up by South Africa and Jordan makes a reappearance only to not catch the ball. South Africa with a territorial gain. An attempted cross kick is charged down so the least worst starting wing (according to the All Black coaching staff) in Reece decides to grab the ball despite being clearly offside. South Africa with a penalty 40m out and Feinberg-Mngomezulu kicks it. Score widens to 13 - 9 in the 55th minute.
McKenzie again full of indecision, hands Jordie a hospital pass and South African Jesus obliges.
Lomax with an excellent turnover. Williams looks exhausted. ~30m out from South Africa's line and ~12 metres in from touch, Jordie manages to secure a lineout 20m out. Why is he kicking with that sort of accuracy? Some attacks that can't find space, we go back for a ruck penalty and Scott points to the posts. McKenzie kicks and the score narrows to a point. 13 - 12
In fact backs made it to 5m out, with DMac out back. Probably would have scored from EE slowing ruck but Rieko on right so no wing outside Jordan on left. Another brilliant Bok decision to sacrifice three to save five or seven.
20 minutes left and Beaudy comes on to replace Will Jordan who has done precisely fuck all as fullback.
Why is Reece still on???
Jacobson comes on for Sititi which is an inspired substitution since he was doing more than Ardie...
So Boks edge Q3 where AB fatties starting to look a tad slow, and midfield seems to get dropsies.
Again a reffing mistake integral to Bok try.
Another naive penalty choice hampers us.
Added to replacement bingo. TJS immediately on wrong side of ref, and Ratima was still going strong. Reece retained to make more cock ups. Probably ought to have subbed the mighty Williams at 55.
Mainly self inflicted wounds, although Marx had an excellent first five minutes.
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@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
Brace did it to Will Skelton too playing for La Rochelle.
He is a bit of a weirdo of a ref.
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@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
It's bullshit, if Justin Marshall was playing today he'd be sent off in the first 10 mins. That penalty on Sunday was utter bullshit. The Springboks player was lying all over our side of the ruck, TJ had every right to shout for a penalty. Refs are far too entitled these days and they are the biggest issue with International rugby IMO.
Virtually all 30 players on the field will yell to the ref if they see something like a knock or head clash.
Just seems that the refs had heard of his reputation and were going to crack down on him hard.
Given the evidence we have, it’s not really penalisable (word?!) what he did. Given that he was the only one he got treated like that he was singled out.
Willie Le Roux runs in from 40 meters back for every decision haranguing the refs, making TMO squares with his fingers.
But for some reason TJP was on their radar for these games, which is a bit weird as he has been injured for over a year so didnt really have a recent body of work for the refs to go off. All he said in test one was "whats that". The ref completely over reacted.
They were prepped and waiting in the long grass for him to say something.
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@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
It's bullshit, if Justin Marshall was playing today he'd be sent off in the first 10 mins. That penalty on Sunday was utter bullshit. The Springboks player was lying all over our side of the ruck, TJ had every right to shout for a penalty. Refs are far too entitled these days and they are the biggest issue with International rugby IMO.
And they dont seem to be accountable.
Like players get dropped, coaches get fired but refs dont have to front the media, and keep getting new assignments despite gaffe after gaffe.
And when they have really fucked up, the ole "people were mean to me on the internet" ace card gets played.
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@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
On the TJP thing, we all know he is too yappy at halfback but does anyone else think it is odd that the 2 refs have told him that he will be sent off if he talks to the ref again?
It's bullshit, if Justin Marshall was playing today he'd be sent off in the first 10 mins. That penalty on Sunday was utter bullshit. The Springboks player was lying all over our side of the ruck, TJ had every right to shout for a penalty. Refs are far too entitled these days and they are the biggest issue with International rugby IMO.
Virtually all 30 players on the field will yell to the ref if they see something like a knock or head clash.
Just seems that the refs had heard of his reputation and were going to crack down on him hard.
Given the evidence we have, it’s not really penalisable (word?!) what he did. Given that he was the only one he got treated like that he was singled out.
Willie Le Roux runs in from 40 meters back for every decision haranguing the refs, making TMO squares with his fingers.
But for some reason TJP was on their radar for these games, which is a bit weird as he has been injured for over a year so didnt really have a recent body of work for the refs to go off. All he said in test one was "whats that". The ref completely over reacted.
They were prepped and waiting in the long grass for him to say something.
I don't think it's clear how much Perenara was complaining during the games.
