Springboks vs All Blacks 2
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Clearly not good enough at the moment to worry the boks, the benches the big difference and some absolutely bone headed play at critical times. We couldn't catch or kick a ball either all day. Self combusted at important moments with silly mistakes. McKenzie isn't the answer at this level. The captain conspicuous by his absence. I'm not questioning the effort but the team just isn't gelling together and some of the selections appear baffling. Hopefully Razor can grow into the role but I don't think he should be given more than the year to get a team with some strong foundations under it, four year deal is a bit of a joke to me in professional sport, especially an untried one. Didn't even look like scoring a try all day. Props to the ref, thought he did a good job, not like the loon from the week before.
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I'd just like to add I find it actually incredulous that any coach can get a 4 year contract untested. What pressure does that put on the coach? Zero. Any professional in a high paid job has to be held accountable, there's no accountability and no pressure when you are just handed a deal like that. For me NZRFU is to blame here, it's obviously not a professional organisation when you are prepared to hand out a sweet deal like that. NZRFU should have offered a 1 year contract, with an 1 year option to extend based on clear performance goals, and those goals should not just be results based, but also have other qualitative assessments. It should be biased towards performance, but if there are other long term achievements, those should be included. I hope NZRFU have something built into their contract which makes the 4 years an easy get out and no cost otherwise this deal reeks of bias. If a coach doesn't want to exchange the risk of success for managing one of the world's most famous sports teams, then that person is the wrong person for the job. Anyway, rant over.
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@antipodean said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Second half.
Jordie secures the kickoff. Good run by Sititi gets us outside the 22. McKenzie doesn't want the ball so narrows the available angle by passing to Jordie who punts downfield.
de Allende gets tackled by Vaa'i whose locking partner is straight over the ball and wins a penalty. McKenzie goes for a kick 56m out. Hits it wide and short.
South Africa comes out of the change shed with an entirely different game. Passing, running and finding space.
At 44 minutes a metre forward pass by Boks on halfway missed. Ought to have been Black scrum in centre of field. In context of game a huge miss by officials.
All Blacks scrambling in defence. Less than five minutes of play and South Africa replace a winger and hooker.
South Africa batter away at the line and Etzebeth is clearly short but advantage for Williams for being offside. South Africa try again from a maul formed off a lineout. All Blacks stop this one from moving forward, Marx goes off the back and is tackled immediately by Taylor. Cane comes in for a Kwagga style turnover but Carley says that's only permissible for players wearing green despite Cane leaving it as soon as he went off his feet.
South Africa try again and again their maul goes nowhere but a series of hitups around the corner results in South African Jesus doing enough between Cane and Ioane to stretch out and place the ball over the line. South Africa take the lead 10 - 9 with a successful conversion and TJP comes onto the field because quite clearly this has all been Ratima's fault.
To make room for ALB (why?), Ioane is moved to the wing. Ioane makes ground when someone finally passes him the ball and Jordie immediately gives away a penalty by flying into the ruck, going off his feet and cleaning out only himself. For some reason he looks mystified.
Malherbe, Weise and Pollard are tired, so they get a rest.
Contestable kick put up by South Africa and Jordan makes a reappearance only to not catch the ball. South Africa with a territorial gain. An attempted cross kick is charged down so the least worst starting wing (according to the All Black coaching staff) in Reece decides to grab the ball despite being clearly offside. South Africa with a penalty 40m out and Feinberg-Mngomezulu kicks it. Score widens to 13 - 9 in the 55th minute.
McKenzie again full of indecision, hands Jordie a hospital pass and South African Jesus obliges.
Lomax with an excellent turnover. Williams looks exhausted. ~30m out from South Africa's line and ~12 metres in from touch, Jordie manages to secure a lineout 20m out. Why is he kicking with that sort of accuracy? Some attacks that can't find space, we go back for a ruck penalty and Scott points to the posts. McKenzie kicks and the score narrows to a point. 13 - 12
20 minutes left and Beaudy comes on to replace Will Jordan who has done precisely fuck all as fullback. Jacobson comes on for Sititi which is an inspired substitution since he was doing more than Ardie...
le Roux is awarded a yellow card for a failed intercept as the All Blacks put together probably the best backline effort of the match so far. McKenzie hits the post, Jordie regathers and TJP throws a shitter of a pass to no one.
Hot on attack Scott decides a falcon is better than catching the ball and South Africa are relieved of pressure.
At some point Williams the halfback was replaced by homeless Sideshow Bob.
Feinberg-Mngomezulu misses a penalty attempt from halfway. 22 dropout and Elrigh Louw gets sat on his arse by Codie with some help from Jacobson. Vaa'i is immediately over the ball despite three South African forwards trying to clean him out.
Ardie takes the lineout and inaccuracy in setting up the maul results in South African scrum. Another chance goes missing.
Ofa's on for Williams. Lomax gets penalised despite Steenekamp pulling down and folding inwards at the scrum. South Africa moving slightly forwards so Carley blows that way. South Africa kick for touch and Vaa'i steals the lineout.
Steenekamp too slow to roll away and McKenzie with an opportunity 47m out and directly in front. Fucks it.
Lomax gets a soft yellow card as Kolbe runs into his shoulder and ridiculously is on referral whether it should be a red card. A blot on his copybook in an otherwise fine game as he didn't need to shift his weight which is all Carley needed to penalise him.
South Africa take the lineout maul option and again it's well repulsed by the Men in Black. Marx illegally changes his bind at the base, detaching and then reattaching, catches Reece napping and dives into the corner. Try awarded. Conversion is wide. Five minutes left and the score is 18 - 12
Kick off and a double knock on results in a Bok scrum. Feinberg-Mngomezulu waltzes between TJP and McKenzie, kicks ahead but the ball goes out inside NZ's 22. Camera pans to South African Jesus who has been replaced. Must've broken his other cheekbone.
Lineout won, TJP passes to McKenzie who passes to Ardie who decides it's best if he fights getting to ground so South Africa get more time to set up their defence. After Louw slows the ball down enough TJP gets to pass to McKenzie who
does something rather quite brilliantputs up a shit bomb which comes down on our 22 and South Africa have possession with less than four minutes left.Carley warns TJP that if he keeps talking he'll be sent from the field. Seems he didn't learn a fucking thing from the review of last week's effort.
A minute to go 70 metres and there is absolutely no organisation in play. One final chance with a penalty, the All Blacks go for the lineout. South Africa win it, boot it into row Z and that's the game.
So two weeks in a row the All Blacks are leading at halftime and lose. Vaa'i had a stormer of a game ably assisted by Taylor. Cane tackled and won a turnover. Sititi grew into the game. Ardie needs to be replaced because if he's not giving away penalties trying too hard, he's a handbrake. TJP needs to be told he can go to Japan early. McKenzie is worse than a waste of space - he provides no direction and puts others under pressure. Jordie is rocks and cubic zirconias. Jordan was invisible. Both replacement wings were poor.
Coaching Jesus has now lost two in a row to South Africa and failed to win the Rugby Championship. His selections and gameplans are mystifyingly bad. As shit as the Wallabies played this morning, the Bledisloe is in a precarious position. We've been sold a pup and the emperor has no clothes.
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@LagerLout said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Clearly not good enough at the moment to worry the boks, the benches the big difference and some absolutely bone headed play at critical times. We couldn't catch or kick a ball either all day. Self combusted at important moments with silly mistakes. McKenzie isn't the answer at this level. The captain conspicuous by his absence. I'm not questioning the effort but the team just isn't gelling together and some of the selections appear baffling. Hopefully Razor can grow into the role but I don't think he should be given more than the year to get a team with some strong foundations under it, four year deal is a bit of a joke to me in professional sport, especially an untried one. Didn't even look like scoring a try all day. Props to the ref, thought he did a good job, not like the loon from the week before.
I think they would have been plenty worried in both those games, then we finished very poorly.
McKenzie is the only answer we have, and while he's been around a long time he is not at all experienced in terms of starting 10 at the level of playing SA in SA. His play at 10 at super level has improved out of sight in the last two years, and I see more than enough in him to continue - even disregarding the lack of other options - if Mounga were available I would still stick with McKenzie, because his passing and vision has the potential to actually make us able to beat a rush defence consistently which has been our achilles heel for years.
Another way to look at it is: is there actually anyone else on the park who puts people in space? TJ does I guess, but his downsides in his core role outweigh that. Jordie doesn't. Rieko doesn't. BB doesn't. Jordan doesn't.And we scored tries the week before.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
One could argue that being up 27-14 against SA is progress, compared to I'm pretty sure never leading in the RWC final.
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Our young forwards should be proud of what they achieved against SA.
Overall the backs fell short. -
THey didn't set much of a platform. Lack of possession and lack of phase play. Same as in the first test. The backs created most of the points from the first test off zero phase play.
It was a mixed bag from the forwards. Some good stuff and some ordinary stuff.
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The forwards were good in the set phases but, despite Sititi's good performance, didn't win the hard yards. Taylor made plenty of good runs but it was mainly in broken play. I think Mighty Williams is too much concentrated on his core duties : he should be used as a battering ram as he has the power to break tackles.
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@nzzp said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@voodoo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
How did this happen?
Foster.
GOAT squad and no young players able to force their way into the team
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@voodoo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Since forever when we made a line break, my immediate thought was “we’re on here!”
These days the first thing I think is “fuck, we’re gonna get isolated and turn it over”
How did this happen?
Yeah I think that a bit if it's a forward.
If it's a back the first thing I think is 'fuck they're going to kick it away'.
If it's against SA, then it's 'won't be a try they'll infringe'.Jokes aside, if we fix the ball running problem, the support play is next in line. There were a couple of times when Sititi made a half break and had hands free and... nobody there.
Taylor is still good at this, props not so much, our current locks are considerably worse at it than Whitelock and Retallick were, and most importantly it's not Cane or Savea's game - but it totally was for McCaw and Read, Zinny, So'oialo, Kronfeld, Michael Jones... forwards running with backs and the continuity it provides is a huge part of our historic success.
Hoskins seems like the guy with that skillset, if we want it. -
Jake White: I'm amazed at how naive the All Blacks have become
For as long as I’ve been coaching, the one thing the All Blacks have always possessed is an innate understanding of the game...
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@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Jake White: I'm amazed at how naive the All Blacks have become
For as long as I’ve been coaching, the one thing the All Blacks have always possessed is an innate understanding of the game...
That was good from White until the last paragraph where he went all RWC is all that really matters - but as a Saffa that is expected I guess.
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@voodoo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Since forever when we made a line break, my immediate thought was “we’re on here!”
These days the first thing I think is “fuck, we’re gonna get isolated and turn it over”
How did this happen?
yeah, hadnt clicked but youre right
i think maybe its a bit of, in the past when we made a break it was more planned, and so support was anticipating it and therefore on their shoulder.....then we relly leaned into the idea of broken play, no structure, attack from anywhere....and our own players are getting caught by surprise when we make a half break...and theyre just not there...or not quite there and we still try and make the pass or we get isolated
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@DMack said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@pakman
Love to see another angle. Looked over on the only angle we could see. He really should have made thatQuite tricky. Had the posts been higher pretty sure it would have hit them. Having watched it a few times think it would have hit inside.
According to the Laws, if above the top of sticks touchie has to make judgement as to whether or not it would have gone through. TMO job? -
@antipodean said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
First half:
Carley does a good job setting the tone by penalising Williams for pissing about at the ruckk.
Ensuing scrum Lomax sets up too high and from the start Ox Nche has him twisted, gets further under him, drives him up and the All Blacks scrum goes backwards.
In fact Bongi drove down on Lomax's left shoulder and Ox up on right and Vaa'i seemed to slip off ass.
Tele’a with a loose carry and loses it too easily in a collision with South African Jesus.
Nice kick on a tight angle by Jordie narrowly misses a 50-22. South Africa with a lineout just outside their 22. Vaa'i knocks it back on AB side but it rolls into touch.
All Black pattern appears to have the shortest man on the team covering cross kicks as a second fullback. Twice now McKenzie has been outjumped.
All Blacks with a scrum, Ardie runs off the back to set up a ruck five metres short of halfway and the very next phase McKenzie kicks a contestable for Reece that he doesn't secure.
South Africa kick long and Tele'a fumbles it into touch back up the field where the scrum was. Black secures the lineout from South African overthrow and a series of excellent runs, direct and then sweeping across the field gets the All Blacks to within a few metres of the Springbok line. If this is the All Black attack Leon didn't want, it's good he's gone.
South African, could be Jasper Wiese, gets a turnover, is on his back turtle like exposed and Ratima is more interested in looking at Carley rather than doing anything about it. Hope this isn't the benefit of having the more experienced TJP in the squad mentoring the young lad.
Reece is much slower than Kolbe.
Jordan shows McKenzie how to jump and sets off down the wing, kicks ahead and falls over South African Jesus. de Allende cleans up by pushing it over the sideline. From the lineout Savea puts Codie into a gap and Codie does his best Cullen impersonation. Ratima in support is tackled early by Wiese and Carley awards New Zealand a penalty and Wiese a yellow card. Should've been a penalty try. New Zealand take three points.
Have to give it to Boks, when they shell a yellow card it's a cynical calculation to save five or seven. A penalty try would not have been unreasonable.
Reece chases the exit kick and decides his best input is to clatter into le Roux without ever making an attempt to regather the ball. Receives a deserved yellow card.
South Africa kick to the line and do a tricky move sweeping back to the blindside. Scott Barrett makes his first appearance that I've noticed by winning a turnover penalty. Jordie rewards his brother's effort by making a grand total of 15m with his kick.
Aumua comes on for Taylor who looks to be off for a HIA. This is a loss because Codie has been excellent thus far. With the change in hooker South Africa win the lineout and Kolbe waltzes through some disorganised defence, ineffective tackles and with only the dependable Jordan in defence to beat, Sam Cane again saves the day with a superman tackle from behind 15m out. South Africa thankfully fumble the ball and it's a scrum.
Aumua and Lomax double team Bongi and AB scrum goes forward.
Lineout and Mbonambi predictably needs a rest.
Ardie gives away a stupid penalty, South Africa opt to go for a lineout five metres out and NZ engage early. Carley doesn't notice and a phase or two later Cane comes up with a turnover in front of the posts.
27th minute and we have a scrum. Lomax sets much better and Ox Nche can't get lower without eating grass, while Williams turns Malherbe 90°. South African scrum goes backwards but they get the ball out.
Great scrum with Frans in deep trouble and Bongi forced to bail.
Two rucks later Aumua forces a knock on and Codie comes back onto the field.
Penalty for not rolling away quickly enough at a ruck and McKenzie kicks another. This time from the restart exit, Reece, lesson learned, decides to let le Roux land with the ball and then hit him. le Roux flings it back inside before he gets bundled out and South Africa knock on. Bit of a kicking duel, le Roux gets outjumped by McKenzie and Jordan aimlessly pumps it down the middle to Pollard who runs it back. Ardie is an assistant tackler according to Carley and gets penalised for not releasing.
VERY margnal call leads to Boks' only points of half.
Wiese runs down the blindside of a scrum, Sititi misses and Ardie makes a good covering tackle. Ratima goes straight over the ball and wins a clear turnover penalty. Messy lineout and Ratima kicks from the base of a ruck. Pollard sees space behind Reece who is covering Kriel and Kolbe. Ioane comes flying across to secure the ball.
Sititi finally gets his hands on the ball and makes a good run. Tele'a ignores players out to his left
Not sure he had a clear pass.
and play breaks down. A missed no look pop pass out the back from Sititi, McKenzie gathers, hesitates and throws a ball behind Ioane who knocks on trying to catch it. Another promising attack falls apart because of timing and accuracy.
Williams tackles/ impedes Ox Nche without the ball leaving Codie free to get over Mbonambi and win a turnover. Ox should've been an option on the inside or the cleaner at the tackle. Not sure why Carley didn't give a penalty there, possibly because Nche stayed on his feet and was late?
Hot on attack Pollard secures a turnover. Carley ignores he's offside and the ball is still within the ruck. But he gets dumped into touch by Ardie and Jordan. NZ with a lineout 10m out. Sititi takes the lineout, backs up with some good carries, South Africa predictably infringe at the ruck and the All Blacks kick the penalty to go into halftime 3 - 9 up.
Now this is an important example of the lack of feel of leaders. Sure penalty is a gimme, but take the scrum. It's 10m out and dead in front. We monstered Boks in three of last four scrums, so very good chance of penalty, but more important their loosies have to stay bound so defence compromised. ABs should have backed themselves to take five, which would probably become seven.
13 - 3 was what ABs deserved after poor Boks half.
So after a false start the All Blacks scrum is gaining ascendancy . Lomax carrying well. Sititi is growing into the game nicely. Cane is making tackles and cleaning up the failings of others. Ardie is giving away penalties but trying. Jordie won't give the ball to Ioane while Vaa'i is the best lock on the park. Codie is having a storming game. Jordan is practically invisible and both wings are a clear step down from last week. McKenzie is having no positive effect on the game at all.
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@OomPB said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Nienaber is with Leinster these days. He left us with an excellent defensive system. You can see his work at the Stormers aswell. The Springboks defense has been excellent since 2018. That was the difference between test 1 & 2.
The stats showed the Boks missed 37 tackles in the 2nd test.
I must admit that didn’t seem right and it didn’t feel like we had besten 37 defenders.
Not sure if this is high because of the way it is recorded. Someone shooting out of the line ramps up the no. Of missed tackles?
One thing the Boks have always had is an amazing scramble defence so even if you do beat a defender then there are plenty of other Boks flying across to mow you down.
I thought in test 1 the Boks defence didn’t look as intense and lacked the line speed we have seen in the past
