All Blacks 2024
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@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:
@antipodean I'm a Cantabrian and this resonates with even me. As I said earlier, what business does Havilli even have being in the squad? He played a handful of super rugby games this year, and in them he was a liability cough Waratahs game. Then he got injured and walks into the All Blacks. Might be one of the worst All Blacks I've seen.
That jersey could and should be filled by Love or Narawa
The selection of Havilli and Blackadder combined with the call up of Fihaki gives me grave concerns.
On the positive side of the ledger I see glimpses of improvement in our manner of play. We've dominated aspects of games but not realised the benefits.
Hopefully these changes are deliberate and we're about to see it come together as the players gain familiarity and experience with it and each other.
But there needs to be some ruthlessness in selection next year rewarding form, regardless of SR franchise or province.
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Selecting players you know in the first year (Havili, Blackadder) I have been able to stomach, but the Fihaki selection is just weird. If he keeps getting chances, he better be fucking great.
Other coaches have had projects (Eg, Toeva) but those players were so clearly talented that no-one really questioned why the coaches wanted to see them.
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I think the big problem with the 2024 All Blacks is that the coaches are still trying to replicate the 2009-2016 All Blacks, but the game has moved on.
You need more muscle in the forwards, more backs who can kick and more flat out gas out wide these days.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
We're damning SB with faint praise. His junior partner is doing all that "grunt work" as well as being our dominant lineout forward, good around the track and a threat at the ruck.
We've got far too comfortable with "he's going okay" players in the ABs. There isn't a single player on our team that can't be upgraded on.I'm not sure we have a better lock yet, but Holland is coming and Barrett and Vaaii are basically the same sort of player. So, knowing this coaching team, I guess Vaii goes to the bench....
My issue is that he's a pretty shit captain. I do like the way he is improving with his talk to the ref, but that decision today was just, un All Black like.
The game was there to be won, and he decided to keep it close. I don't think we can have a leader who thinks that way and still be effective.
BTW: If he didn't call the corner because we don't have any exception strike plays (assuming we can't get to a line out drive), then we need better coaches.
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I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
I disagree.
Firstly he has very good distribution.
However even if he didn't have good distriution the two giant Bok 12s have shown you don't need to be a good distributor or a good kicker.
Nonu only brought kicking into his game after he was established at 12 however again Lam actually has a good long punt on him.
Lam is an extremely physical defender which sets him apart from the other options.
Now setting aside the debate of whether he's suitable for the midfield for me he is actually the best option to have on the bench because if we pick a 10/15 like Mckenzie or Perofeta there we can pick Lam who can genuinely cover 12, 13, 11 and 14. He can offer impact and he can come in and replace players without having to rearrange the backline.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
Yeah I agree.
Comparing Smith to Ratima doesn't wash It's not the same problem. Smith may have often been one dimensional but unlike Ratima Smith got to the base of the ruck and cleared the ball quickly with a lightening pass.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
I think Ratima has hit a wall the last couple of weeks.
He is young and it is his biggest season to date.
He could have done with a little bit of protection as everyone can see his form has dropped in the last few weeks.
He will come again but it is clear that Roigard is No. 1 now (and would have always been if it wasn’t for the injury)
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Whatever Ratima's failings in the last couple of games (and I thought his forwards needed to protect him more last week), the 9 jersey has been a def. uptick this year
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Whatever Ratima's failings in the last couple of games (and I thought his forwards needed to protect him more last week), the 9 jersey has been a def. uptick this year
I agree 100%. The pack and 9 are looking good. Dmac finished strong, BB is past his best and I'd like to see us move on. Clarke is reborn, Telea played great until he got hurt. Rieko was very solid, Jordie isn't at his best but was notable by his absence. WJ is rocks and diamonds, there are some good pieces there, we just need to be more clinical and sharpen up the gameplan
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
Umaga played 13 mostly as I recall it , and it can work - as Rieko has shown.
Nonu the exception not the rule at 12. Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
and the other thing is, I’ll happily be wrong, more just a gut feel that he isn’t the long-term solution as a second choice 12.
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A crap year by AB standards but decent by all others.
I think Robertson has a good platform to build and launch on.
I worry about our attack vs good defense and our ability to capitalise on breaks.
For me BB is done and Barrett needs to back the team more with his captaincy decisions. That last penalty was kick to the corner all day. Even if we blow the maul and lose possession we get a lineout at most 30 meters out.
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I'm not sure either, but history shows that the ABs have had great success with moving guys from wing to midfield.
Tana was a bit of an exception as he had speed and size, so could play 12/13, and while he was primarily a 13, his last game was at 12, and he played the 3rd Lions test (and some others) at 12.
I bring it up because Lam has the speed to be a 13, but also the size to be effective at 12. Personally, if I were at the Blues, I'd lock him in there and then we'll get to see next year.
Edit: I think the final point is that when guys get to the absolute top, they have to make the side playing a position where their body matches with the needs of the position. I think that's why we need more size at 12, it's just part and parcel of the position.
Recently, we've seen Tosi and Williams move from 8 to prop and that capability to be a ball runner and distributor seems to be the need of the absolute best props at the highest levels.
