All Blacks 2024
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I don't recall Savea throwing into the lineout.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Total Impacts Per 80 Minutes 2025
(Impacts) tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten + turnovers won + dominant tacklesForwards
8.16 Sititi
6.39 Savea
5.19 Aumua
4.75 Finau
3.74 Darry
3.46 TaylorThat's top 6. Some how Savea has done nothing while Taylor has done it all.
Breakdown impact per tackle and the impact per metres gain in which area of the field running against tight forwards or inside backs etc
You can quote stats all you like it doesn’t show up on a spreadsheet how it relates to the game situation.
It is not a bible to quote from. -
Lineout throwing was never the comparison with Savea. Stop changing the goal posts.
The claim was that Taylor was doing more with his carries than Savea because he was making more metres but Taylor is actually actually having less impact even though he's making more metres.
The other claim was Savea has been in poor form and lacking impact but he's the 2nd most impactful attack/defense forward.
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@brodean i never said it was, i only said those that were happy with taylor have other things effecting their impression of if he'd had a good game
the claim was actually the Taylor got over the advantage line...and meters gained doesnt seem to be one of the criteria for impacts per 80 min
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I'm not claiming it's a bible but you should be able to get an indication and support of an idea in stats but there isn't any indication in these stats that support the negative comments about Savea . There is nothing to suggest that Savea has been poor, dropping the ball more than others, and lacking impact. There's plenty to support that for Sam Cane.
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Taylor was only brought up in relation to Savea to prove that Savea was ineffective.
I'm very happy with Taylor's form. He's in career best form. I'm not bagging him. I'm saying open running is his strength and not close in running.
However we should start Williams over De Groot to have a better balance in the tight forwards for close in runners because De Groot, Lomax, Barrett and Vaa'i are pretty ineffective in that area.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not claiming it's a bible but you should be able to get an indication and support of an idea in stats but there isn't any indication in these stats that support the negative comments about Savea . There is nothing to suggest that Savea has been poor, dropping the ball more than others, and lacking impact. There's plenty to support that for Sam Cane.
Cane has been poor for me no doubt but Savea has too .
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Top 5 dominant tackles per 80 minutes this season:
1.77 Luke Jacobson
1.76 Ofa Tu'ungafasi
1.75 Patrick Tuipulotu
1.4 Sam Darry
1.36 Samipeni FinauWallace Sititi has been great but he isn't in the top 10 for dominant tackles which is something we've come to expect from a blindside.
If LJ at 7 and WS at 6 the former provides the hard shoulder. Can’t see any reason why they couldn’t alternate at scrum time depending on field position.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
What’s the classification of a dominant tackle please?
My definition of it is stopping the ball carrier behind the gain line or in their tracks, not allowing the ball carrier to walk forward in contact. @MN5 gave some good examples of that, and I'm sure you'll remember the late Jerry Collins put on an almighty dominant tackle on your countryman Colin Charvis back in 2003.
They also tend to make less tackles as opposition teams will likely steer away from the more hard hitting tacklers, hence why you see the Carlo Tizzano's, Ethan Blackadder's, Luke Jacobsen's of the world topping tackle counts.
Shannon Frizzell also made plenty of tackles (apart from the world cup final), most of them around the bootlaces as he wasn't the most dominant of tacklers despite his size.
A tree felling low tackle with a jackler looming is arguably as effective as a dominant tackle. Think tackling low worked well for ABs against Boks and less risk of cards.
That said, one of my fondest rugby memories is of Larkham ghosting in at pace from fullback for Brumbies against Blues beating three but unexpectedly encountering Michael Jones lurking behind one of the blokes he’d skinned.
He stopped absolutely dead.
The ghosting run wasn’t seen again in that game. -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Has Tele'a actually had a chance to start at 14 this year? I believe he's always been forced to play on the left wing which is not his natural side.
Him and Reece clearly have had issues under the high ball this year.
People have been bagging Tele'a but he has the highest amount of impacts per 80 minutes of any All Black this year. ( tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten + turnovers won + dominant tackles )
Apart from Narawa there isn't a 14 who has come close to his form in Super Rugby for years.
I’d love to see Perofeta (calf issue permitting) Caleb and Telea (at 14) get a start against Japan. Throw in Jordie and Proctor with Christie and Plummer and there’s a lot of cohesion.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Total Impacts Per 80 Minutes 2025
(Impacts) tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten + turnovers won + dominant tacklesForwards
8.16 Sititi
6.39 Savea
5.19 Aumua
4.75 Finau
3.74 Darry
3.46 TaylorThat's top 6. Some how Savea has done nothing while Taylor has done it all.
Out of interest - how does Caleb Clarke score in this total impacts equation?
If he scores higher than Codie, should we play him at hooker?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Total Impacts Per 80 Minutes 2025
(Impacts) tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten + turnovers won + dominant tacklesForwards
8.16 Sititi
6.39 Savea
5.19 Aumua
4.75 Finau
3.74 Darry
3.46 TaylorThat's top 6. Some how Savea has done nothing while Taylor has done it all.
Out of interest - how does Caleb Clarke score in this total impacts equation?
If he scores higher than Codie, should we play him at hooker?
Sure. Let's throw Clarke at hooker and make Jordie a lock.
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@brodean Well - to be blunt - I reckon Caleb will score really well on your metric.
He's got lots of tries, lots of clean breaks, lots of defenders beaten, he's out on the wing, so he's probably won a few turnovers where defenders are isolated (a la Tavatavanawai) and no-one makes many dominat tackles.
As I pointed out last week, the predictive value of your model is - unfortunately - close to nil.
What does Caleb score?
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not claiming it's a bible but you should be able to get an indication and support of an idea in stats but there isn't any indication in these stats that support the negative comments about Savea . There is nothing to suggest that Savea has been poor, dropping the ball more than others, and lacking impact. There's plenty to support that for Sam Cane.
Cane has been poor for me no doubt but Savea has too .
Scott Robertson needs to use his bench earlier. Give the players 25-30 minutes from the bench not 15-20 minutes. When our bench comes on, the opposition bench has already gained momentum and finish stronger. Playing forwards beyond 60 minutes is poor coaching. Robertson need to be questioned and challenged by the media on his bench timing.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Total Impacts Per 80 Minutes 2025
(Impacts) tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten + turnovers won + dominant tacklesForwards
8.16 Sititi
6.39 Savea
5.19 Aumua
4.75 Finau
3.74 Darry
3.46 TaylorThat's top 6. Some how Savea has done nothing while Taylor has done it all.
That’s some crystal ball you’re rocking.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Both Aumua, and Finau have helped us get our only wins this year against a top 5 team.
Who is your loose forward trio?
Would you have at hooker instead of Aumua?
It's a team game, being in a winning side doesn't mean you played well at all.
I would have picked both Finau and Aumua in the squad, and have been advocating for Aumua to get more minutes because I think he's a much better player than he has been showing.
Fact is, the impact stat is pretty meaningless.I'm really liking Sititi's work, I think he'd go pretty well at 7 (and obviously 8 ) too. But I want to see what Hoskins can do at 8. He has skills which are really unusual for a forward - and we need some size which he has, and Finau isn't there (yet, I hope). He was the best player in Super rugby, and while plenty of people seem to want to belittle the comp, it's what we've got and most of the guys who looked good in Super are looking good now.
Not really sure who my 3rd loosie would be, and what would be best for the balance, need another workrate player with Hoskins there (not a criticism, Read and Zinzan weren't workrate players), and a workrate tackler as Wallace is a good tackler but more of a runner - and it probably depends a bit on the opposition. Maybe Savea at 7, maybe Blackadder at 6 or 7 - and either of them as the bench loosie would work.
I'm not a Jacobson fan - good player, but one dimensional, gives away a lot of penalties and is just a Cane replica for me. Dalton likewise: he's good, but has never really struck me as more than a really able back-up and I want something special in the 7 black shirt. There's obviously some interesting young fellas coming through in Lakai etc too.
I do think a little more attention should go towards horses for courses, because I hardly think it's coaching genius to see Sam Cane is always going to be shit in fast open games, in the same way he is very valuable in tight forward-oriented games where people need smashing close in. -
We've all seen Savea hasn't been great this year. He wasn't awful, but by the standards we expect from him, he was well below par.
All these stats show that stats in rugby don't really mean a lot.
For example how does Finau's condeded maul penalty against the Springboks (so stupid, Scott Barrett in 2019 would have been proud of it) factor into the stats equation? Exactly, it doesn't. But stuff like this is why he gets some deserved shit. -
There is a lot of glass half empty comments on here, so I'm going to buck the trend of my entire life and be the half full bloke for once.
Granted, I've only seen the highlights on the weekend, but it was a 5 tries to one drubbing against a team that traditionally lifts against us. And for the first time this tournament, we did manage to score in the last 20. That was the most glaringly obvious problem through the first 5 rounds.
Reality is that we managed to match the Boks for a lot of the two games we played over there. This is the globally lauded team being spoken of in many circles as one of the best Bok teams ever. Yes, we lost 2-0, and we leaked far too many points for my liking, but we fronted up, showed that we have the players in place to build on & found a couple of potential long-term All Blacks as well.
The old guard is stuttering, but it's the year post WC and the old guard had to take on new leadership roles to replace the lost experience & caps. Having them in the team for a year to show the new boys how it's done from a team perspective is no bad thing. They may go EOYT, but Cane & TJ are clearly both done. Savea I think will be fine and I back him to bounce back. Beauden Barrett I think Robertson is a bit unsure how to use, and honestly speaking, I'm with him there. Is there a place for him in the team? Jury out. Scott Barrett hasn't been at his 2023 form, but he did take on the captaincy and the leadership that comes with it. Richie's first year as Captain was sub-standard as well.
First 5 is an issue, as although McKenzie hasn't done bad, he will always play as McKenzie (as he should) and I'm not sold that is world number 1 / championship winning style. He has more flair than almost all of the great flyhalfs, but doesn't, and never has had, the game controlling ability. If we want that flair, we have to accept that. I am somewhat surprised that Plummer didn't get given a shot, but realistically it could only have happened in Bled 2 and I guess Robertson wanted to see if BB still has it.
Backrow may be a bit messy, but Sititi has been found, thoughts on Savea are above. Blackadder has been ok, just not amazing, although I think this forum is really the only place where his amazeballs ability was generated (by some). Yes, I personally would have selected Sotutu & probably Ioane too, but the jury is out if either would have been as good as Sititi has been.
Jordan is looking like himself again, and Caleb Clarke had a decent run. Ratima did well and we've still got Roigard (in my view, our next Smith) to return. That just leaves the centres. Thats where the biggest issue lies for me. Jordie had a bang average run & I still think Rieko is better out wide. But ALB is solid, Procter didn't get much opportunities so the cupboard isn't bare.
Mentality is clearly the biggest problem as we often went from brilliant to headless chickens in the sheds at half time. That is what needs to be resolved, and some guidance from the professor will surely help out.
All in all, not a great RC, still came second though & never got dominated for an entire match.
Solid base to build on.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not claiming it's a bible but you should be able to get an indication and support of an idea in stats but there isn't any indication in these stats that support the negative comments about Savea . There is nothing to suggest that Savea has been poor, dropping the ball more than others, and lacking impact. There's plenty to support that for Sam Cane.
Look, I don’t want to labour the point too much because it’s getting a bit boring, but fuck it I will a little bit more.
The reason that “there is nothing to suggest that Savea has been poor, dropping the ball more than others”….is because….wait for it….you’ve bloody well excluded dropping the ball from your ludicrous “impact score”!
He dropped it 3 times in contact in B1 alone! Nobody else did this.
How about you take your formula that currently just adds good stuff, and adjust it for some bad stuff? Drops, isolations, being bundled into touch, missed cleans, ruck leans (what about the rhyme there!), weak tackles etc - and then add a little nuance from the eye test.
He has not been playing well. It’s not a slight on the man or his career, just a fairly obvious observation of his current form.
He needs a rest, and when he returns, he should not be our starting 8
