All Blacks 2024
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
Plenty of talent coming through in Nz and plenty of young talent coming through the ABs.
Time to give them their chance.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
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@MiketheSnow same head coach. Same captain. Same senior leaders.
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@DaGrubster very similar to what happened with the ABs after 2007. ABs rebuilt under the same coaching team and bolstered their leadership group. It evolved further post-2011 with an infusion of new players into a winning culture with a head coach and assistant who was present in the previous coaching structure.
McCaw et al left in 2015. There was a core of senior leaders present that helped ease the transition (Smith, Whitelock, Retallick, Coles). The problems have come when that hardened core began to drop out of the squad. The leadership group is not the same. Nor is the coaching group post-2015.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
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@MiketheSnow now do the coaches 😉.
Boks are undergoing evolution. The blueprint is there, the players are selected to fit the system. Similar to how Liverpool bought players under Klopp - they had to fit the system. This is because the coaching team is aligned under a head coach who has been in place since 2018.
All Black coaches are working with the squad from scratch. They are having to learn about the players (by working with them directly) as well as getting the message on how they want to play across to them. The one area that is showing real signs of progress is the tight five. That’s no surprise considering Ryan has been in place since 2022 and the forwards know what he is expecting and he is selecting based on how he wants the right five to operate.
This isn’t a defence of Robertson. Look at England and Borthwick. He took them over and kept things simple, stuck to a conservative game plan. He was criticised for it, even after coaching the team to a WC SF. This year he has begun to evolve the way they play and has selected accordingly and England have looked much more threatening.
On Robertson, I would be intrigued to know how much Wayne Smith is interacting with him as his mentor. Smith is a thinker and he will have seen the trends in world rugby and will challenge Robertson if given the opportunity to do so. If Robertson is to innovate, his coaching style and vision needs to be challenged.
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@MiketheSnow SA have added Marx (injured in World Cup) to their squad since WC. He would have been there but for injury. As well as Am.
Their front row mix has barely changed. Their second row has been hit, but they still have Etzebeth. They still have their first choice backrow. They have their backup SH (Reinach). They still have their WC flyhalf, their first choice centre partnership and their top 2 wings. That’s a pretty settled spine upon which to introduce the likes of Williams, SFM and Fassi.
So your stats are a little misleading 😉
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
Almost all the senior Boks are still with the squad, which is key for stability and handing over the reins.
Quite different from the ABs.
Not sure I buy the experienced Snr player argument. Apart from Smith, the exact same backline played in the RWC Final as on Saturday. Dmac, Jordie, Reiko, Telea, Jordan and BB,
In the forwards, 5 of the RWC Final team played - SB, Ardie, Taylor, Lomax & Cane. The "new" and inexperienced players - Williams, Sititi and Vaa'i - were all standout
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
Almost all the senior Boks are still with the squad, which is key for stability and handing over the reins.
Quite different from the ABs.
Not sure I buy the experienced Snr player argument. Apart from Smith, the exact same backline played in the RWC Final as on Saturday. Dmac, Jordie, Reiko, Telea, Jordan and BB,
In the forwards, 5 of the RWC Final team played - SB, Ardie, Taylor, Lomax & Cane. The "new" and inexperienced players - Williams, Sititi and Vaa'i - were all standout
Mo'unga played too.
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
Ah ok I get you. Apologies for clumsily wading in mid discussion.
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@Victor-Meldrew “apart from Smith”…you could just have stopped there. Maybe people now appreciate how much Smith brought to the AB backline. He sits alongside McCaw and Carter as one of the modern greats.
He was more than just a bullet pass. He was the link between forwards and backs, the brains of the operation and had tonnes of game sense. He bossed things and his standards were sky high. He was also cool as a cucumber. TJP is an experienced player, but compared to Smith he is half the player for bringing calm and precision alone.
Smith’s loss alone has been seismic for NZ in how they want to play. Ratima has a fast pass and pace, but he has nowhere near the decision making ability. Roigard has pace and power, but he too won’t make decisions and corral the forwards like Smith did.
Smith and Carter were an all time great combo. Smith allowed Beauden time and space to use his athletic abilities. Smith gave Mo’unga time and space to play in.
Everyone knew NZ were losing a great playerwhen he moved on. Now, they realise he was more than that to the way NZ play.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
Ah ok I get you. Apologies for clumsily wading in mid discussion.
No worries. It surprised me when I checked just how little change in senior players there'd actually been compared to say. 2015
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
So they are pretty settled then.?
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
Of course players, will come in and out of a squad due to rotation, injuries, depth building so it all looks great in the Boks camp.
They are trying to implement a new attacking style with Tony brown as coach which has some teething problems but overall they have looked good at times.
NZ do have a decent amount of players from last year but have lost 3-4 all time greets of the game not just ABs. We do have enough of our squad from last year to perform better than we are though.
Of course we have had a new broom through the coaching team (with about 30 new people in coaching support staff, mgmt etc).
But my reply wasn’t about the AB’s
We are a work in progress, with some obvious flaws in our game. I do believe we have underperformed so far under Razor but there are some positives as well.
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster and most people would have accepted that would be a likely outcome.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
This was the argument for Foster - a continuity candidate.
I am not saying I agree with it, but I could understand the initial appointment.
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It's actually quite startling the progress our forward pack has made over the past year.
