All Blacks 2024
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@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
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@Snowy said in All Blacks 2024:
The comparisons between Foster and Robertson are seriously premature. One had years to get better (apparently without doing so, assistants aside) the other has had months. As has been mentioned the Arg loss (which was appalling) was dreadful defence, then that got better and our offence is atrocious. Hopefully that is pendulum swinging and we find some balance.
We had RWC finalist players so pretty much had to start with them, move on from there. Like most here my major gripe is the loosies and we did have two good options that we didn’t try (yes Akira has been tried in the past but Kaino was too, he worked out OK when given another crack). We also need to address the outside backs, and to give Foster his due, as a full back Jordan makes an excellent wing. Even a stopped clock…
Change takes time and while it is happening life can be really shit.
The comparisons with Foster are due to the fact that Razor was posited as a panacea to stale tactics and selection policies that had been allowed to fester since around 2017.
Robertson was seen as a breath of fresh air. A positive guy who would revive and refresh the Allblacks.
While I agree he has only been in the job a few months , you’d think he would have come in to the job with some innovations or left field selection ideas in his arse pocket.
Instead we are watching the same bonkers chip kicks and exits, the same ensemble cast of underachievers, line fluffers and card magnets and the same evasive corporate jargon press conferences as the last guy .
He has already parted ways with one of his coaches which is indicative of inadequate preparation which was something I thought we didn’t have to worry about with Razor. I thought he was a rugby savant, but he is looking like a vibes guy. “It will be grand”.
Finau is in ahead of Akira and then dropped. He selects Beaudy as a 10 and a heap of outside backs in his first squad. Beaudy never plays 10 and outside backs such as Narawa get no minutes and are then dropped. Narawa is replaced by Love who comes in and gets…..no minutes. Perofeta is in the squad and then gone. If you are going to put your bollocks on the line by not selecting the Super Rugby MVP Sotutu in the whole squad, your madcap idea of 4 or 5 open side flankers better work. It hasn’t really has it.
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
He’s currently just failing as much as the last guy did, with the same fucking players. What did he think was going to happen.
The longer this slump goes on , his legacy is going to look like he rode the coat tails of Whitelock and Mo’unga and was found out once they were gone.
He needs to sort it out. Fast.
He’s had at least 4 years to prepare for this job.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
I think the drama is due to people being cognisant of the fact we have France England and Ireland to come. With 3 losses already on the ledger.
Twickenham Dublin and Paris were hard enough places to go with our GOAT team, never mind with a group of lads who seem to buckle under pressure and throw away leads,, can’t score in last 20 minutes etc.
3 more losses this year could seriously damage the playing group , the coaching group the jersey and the brand™️.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
Plenty of talent coming through in Nz and plenty of young talent coming through the ABs.
Time to give them their chance.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
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@MiketheSnow same head coach. Same captain. Same senior leaders.
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@DaGrubster very similar to what happened with the ABs after 2007. ABs rebuilt under the same coaching team and bolstered their leadership group. It evolved further post-2011 with an infusion of new players into a winning culture with a head coach and assistant who was present in the previous coaching structure.
McCaw et al left in 2015. There was a core of senior leaders present that helped ease the transition (Smith, Whitelock, Retallick, Coles). The problems have come when that hardened core began to drop out of the squad. The leadership group is not the same. Nor is the coaching group post-2015.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
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@MiketheSnow now do the coaches 😉.
Boks are undergoing evolution. The blueprint is there, the players are selected to fit the system. Similar to how Liverpool bought players under Klopp - they had to fit the system. This is because the coaching team is aligned under a head coach who has been in place since 2018.
All Black coaches are working with the squad from scratch. They are having to learn about the players (by working with them directly) as well as getting the message on how they want to play across to them. The one area that is showing real signs of progress is the tight five. That’s no surprise considering Ryan has been in place since 2022 and the forwards know what he is expecting and he is selecting based on how he wants the right five to operate.
This isn’t a defence of Robertson. Look at England and Borthwick. He took them over and kept things simple, stuck to a conservative game plan. He was criticised for it, even after coaching the team to a WC SF. This year he has begun to evolve the way they play and has selected accordingly and England have looked much more threatening.
On Robertson, I would be intrigued to know how much Wayne Smith is interacting with him as his mentor. Smith is a thinker and he will have seen the trends in world rugby and will challenge Robertson if given the opportunity to do so. If Robertson is to innovate, his coaching style and vision needs to be challenged.
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@MiketheSnow SA have added Marx (injured in World Cup) to their squad since WC. He would have been there but for injury. As well as Am.
Their front row mix has barely changed. Their second row has been hit, but they still have Etzebeth. They still have their first choice backrow. They have their backup SH (Reinach). They still have their WC flyhalf, their first choice centre partnership and their top 2 wings. That’s a pretty settled spine upon which to introduce the likes of Williams, SFM and Fassi.
So your stats are a little misleading 😉
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
Almost all the senior Boks are still with the squad, which is key for stability and handing over the reins.
Quite different from the ABs.
Not sure I buy the experienced Snr player argument. Apart from Smith, the exact same backline played in the RWC Final as on Saturday. Dmac, Jordie, Reiko, Telea, Jordan and BB,
In the forwards, 5 of the RWC Final team played - SB, Ardie, Taylor, Lomax & Cane. The "new" and inexperienced players - Williams, Sititi and Vaa'i - were all standout
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
Almost all the senior Boks are still with the squad, which is key for stability and handing over the reins.
Quite different from the ABs.
Not sure I buy the experienced Snr player argument. Apart from Smith, the exact same backline played in the RWC Final as on Saturday. Dmac, Jordie, Reiko, Telea, Jordan and BB,
In the forwards, 5 of the RWC Final team played - SB, Ardie, Taylor, Lomax & Cane. The "new" and inexperienced players - Williams, Sititi and Vaa'i - were all standout
Mo'unga played too.
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
Ah ok I get you. Apologies for clumsily wading in mid discussion.
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@Victor-Meldrew “apart from Smith”…you could just have stopped there. Maybe people now appreciate how much Smith brought to the AB backline. He sits alongside McCaw and Carter as one of the modern greats.
He was more than just a bullet pass. He was the link between forwards and backs, the brains of the operation and had tonnes of game sense. He bossed things and his standards were sky high. He was also cool as a cucumber. TJP is an experienced player, but compared to Smith he is half the player for bringing calm and precision alone.
Smith’s loss alone has been seismic for NZ in how they want to play. Ratima has a fast pass and pace, but he has nowhere near the decision making ability. Roigard has pace and power, but he too won’t make decisions and corral the forwards like Smith did.
Smith and Carter were an all time great combo. Smith allowed Beauden time and space to use his athletic abilities. Smith gave Mo’unga time and space to play in.
Everyone knew NZ were losing a great playerwhen he moved on. Now, they realise he was more than that to the way NZ play.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
DMAC came on in 75th minute.
Yes, but he played in the RWC Final and has been an AB longer than Mo'unga (8 years), has 50+ caps and is clearly experienced.
Ah ok I get you. Apologies for clumsily wading in mid discussion.
No worries. It surprised me when I checked just how little change in senior players there'd actually been compared to say. 2015
