RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
Yeah. They did enough to win after getting into the lead. It was always about containing the other side, England were underestimated though.
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
This is the secret sauce, and where SA were so far ahead of others in the tournament
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
Tell that Pollard. And England!
The French had the best of last ten but England were just hanging on and hoping, a bit like the Boks on Saturday.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
Tell that Pollard. And England!
The French had the best of last ten but England were just hanging on and hoping, a bit like the Boks on Saturday.
This is true
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
They way you and so many are praising SA, you would think that them winning the final by 1 point against a 14 man team was one of the greatest ever achievements by a rugby team. Have even seen pundits compare this team to the 2015 ABs.
If it was the other way around and the ABs didn't score a point against 14 for the last 55 minutes, everyone would be saying that we are huge chokers who got lucky.
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@akan004 the Springboks had two yellows. Kolbey in the last 10 minutes. I
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@OomPB said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 the Springboks had two yellows. Kolbey in the last 10 minutes. I
True, but that's still only 17 minutes with 14 versus 65 (Cane and Frizell). SA also had a 6 point lead when Cane went off.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
They way you and so many are praising SA, you would think that them winning the final by 1 point against a 14 man team was one of the greatest ever achievements by a rugby team. Have even seen pundits compare this team to the 2015 ABs.
If it was the other way around and the ABs didn't score a point against 14 for the last 55 minutes, everyone would be saying that we are huge chokers who got lucky.
And the way you are talking you’d think that playing the other 5 of the top 6 teams in the world to win a World Cup, a back to back World Cup, is not worthy of praise and only the result of fuck ups by the ref / other team etc.
I don’t think they’re the greatest team ever, not by a long shot, but I’ll be fucked that I’ll pretend what they’ve done isn’t great.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
Should the TMO be involved as much? Not sure to be honest. I prefer accurate decisions to obvious mistakes being waived on because the ref missed them, I accept that a balance is tough to strike though.
It’s not pretty clear to me that refereeing decisions DECIDED the final, affected it sure, but decided it? Not for me, we can disagree on that if you like but it strikes me a strange position to take given you missed a penalty in the last few minutes.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge Purely talking about the final. It was not a well managed final by SA. You should never let a 14 man team get so close. Can't believe you can't acknowledge that. NZ stuffed up in the 2nd half too, but I have already covered that.
I’m not claiming they played brilliant rugby, I’m claiming that when push came to shove they did enough to win, again.
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge Purely talking about the final. It was not a well managed final by SA. You should never let a 14 man team get so close. Can't believe you can't acknowledge that. NZ stuffed up in the 2nd half too, but I have already covered that.
I’m not claiming they played brilliant rugby, I’m claiming that when push came to shove they did enough to win, again.
Did they? I don't think they did. I think if NZ showed a bit more composure, even in the final phases when Ardie throws that miracle pass, then SA could very well have lost it and the narrative would be so different. Not to mention the missed kick by Jordie. People would be chastising them for losing to 14.
They allowed us to have a sniff, and that's not how you go about it with a man advantage. You also bring the ref into the game when it's so close which is always risky. Nobody can ever convince me that SA did what they had to do, I think they managed it badly.
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@Dodge if Boks had won by 10, there would have been no issue. They won by 1. Whenever there is such a small margin, there will always be questions about every little decision. So many pieces have been written about the Boks winning the little battles and decisions in the game.
From what I’ve seen from Bok fans on here, they admit they got the run of the green at times in the final and they won on the day. Shit happens.
In an alternate universe, Frizell didn’t get a YC in minute 2, rendering everything that occurred after it null and void.
You sometimes need some luck to go your way to win the big prizes.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
My view on the whole thing is a bit more simplistic,
I think the margins between the top 4 sides are tiny, you could replay the quarter final the next week and get a different result and replay the final and get a different result next time around .
But as always, winning papers over the cracks and losing over emphasis them.
Yes, but the bloody Saffers did it when it mattered. 3 times on the bounce. A tad fortunate maybe v France but they played poorly v England and v NZ in much of the second half and still got over the line.
There are no undeserving RWC winners.
We tend to attach certain phrases to sporting contests in an emotive way to try and make sense of it all. But I’ve never really got the whole deserved or undeserved winners stuff. Your team either wins or doesn’t. It’s that clear cut. And that is why it’s so devastating when you think your team plays well and they don’t get the choccies.
A score line sometimes isn’t a true reflection of what happens on the field. But sometimes it very much is. The weekend in my opinion was clearly in the latter category. It was a genuinely close match.
Reminded me of 2011, only this time we missed the potential go ahead kicks late in the game
Yeah it did me too and I think I made that point in an earlier post ,
But in these down to the wire games , it’s amazing how the narrative can be so different if you win or lose .
Hate to think how we would look back at that 11 final had the frogs kicked that late penalty.
Probably be saying another choke .
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge Purely talking about the final. It was not a well managed final by SA. You should never let a 14 man team get so close. Can't believe you can't acknowledge that. NZ stuffed up too, but I have already covered that.
George Ford says Hi!
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I’m not sure that many are denying that the Boks got the important bits of luck but sometimes luck is what you make for yourselves.
I’m no great (neutral) fan of the way they play. I despise Rassie’s gamesmanship, but I very much admire the fortitude and achievement that they’ve shown.
Not the prettiest RWC winners, but very worthy. All the whinging about decisions and it only being by one point really denigrates the achievement.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I’m not sure that many are denying that the Boks got the important bits of luck but sometimes luck is what you make for yourselves.
I’m no great (neutral) fan of the way they play. I despise Rassie’s gamesmanship, but I very much admire the fortitude and achievement that they’ve shown.
Not the prettiest RWC winners, but very worthy. All the whinging about decisions and it only being by one point really denigrates the achievement.
Yeah you have to be some fucken team to get up by a single point three weeks in a row.
Anyone complaining about them not being worthy winners is just a dick really.
But this has given the All Blacks something to chase, as of 2015 they were clearly in front in terms of “amount of WCs won”
Not anymore.
