RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Tell said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo its seems to basic...too basic to stuff up so just went back to look....the lineout is the fifth phase before the try....its just painful
Maybe so. But it WAS a knock on.
Entirely cause by EE illegal interference. It ought to have been left to stand, because the only correct alternative was a penalty try and EE in bin for 10.
You can't give a pen try for that infringement. But I agree with Reason (ugh), if Barnes found no fault and we scored half a dozen phases later, the TMO has overstepped his bounds to disallow the try. You could argue that it was also a failure of Barnes not to know the two phase rule and disregard the TMOs input
That is incorrect. Rule 8 is clear. But for the infringement a try would have been scored, which is the test.
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't.100%. It's a typical Foster move to depart from a winning plan, just look at the pool game vs the French. Play as we did against Ireland and the ref is taken out of the equation as we would have led in the game and made the saffas chase us
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
TMO doesn't decide if it is yellow or red the two (note two) unnamed bunker officials do. And their decisions on those were reasonable, you can disagree, but I see where they were coming from. However, you can take them out of the reckoning by not going high, see Ireland this year, they managed a year with a couple of cards- we get that every fucking game!
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I think you’ve nailed it pretty much. You always expect NZ to play the most intelligent rugby, but the Saffers played smarter on the day imo. Odd, because you clearly have some intelligent players. What’s the issue? Leadership? Coaching?
The competitions they play in.
Super was the premier pro comp in the world a few years ago. Now it's a shadow of it's former self, littered with easy beat teams and getting more homogenous. Players aren't being asked to play different styels, they are getting put into difficult situations where they have to learn. Ultimately, NH comps have gone past us - and that's why they were favourites this RWC cycle. Shining at Super no longer leads to an expectation of shining in TestsWe have to learn, make smart rugby and business decisions and get good administration and competition execution. COntrol what we can control, and keep pushing for better laws.
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
TMO doesn't decide if it is yellow or red the two (note two) unnamed bunker officials do. And their decisions on those were reasonable, you can disagree, but I see where they were coming from. However, you can take them out of the reckoning by not going high, see Ireland this year, they managed a year with a couple of cards- we get that every fucking game!
By TMO I mean TMO/Bunker.
There are two key problems, which present themselves:
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Rugby involves high speed changes of directions, deflections and random ball bounces. Even with correct technique there are likely each game to be a number of head impacts where there is neither intent, nor head targetting. We probably need to chose between current system, which is throwing up too many 'dubious' full reds, a system where red has to be beyond reasonable doubt (in which case Cane below threshold), or reduce inpact of 'technical' reds, the best idea to date being the 20 minute/new player approach; and
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What gets referred and what doesn't? Refs are human and make plenty of mistakes every game. Most aren't pivotal. But pretty ridiculous not to have TMO correct ref for example in quarter when BOK penalises French for holding on when different angle clearly show Kwagga having to put hand on ground so as not to overbalance. That knocked France out of RWC incorrectly. For me, if you've got technology then kicks for goal ought to fall within remit. And how far do we go back? Saw somewhere it was two phases, in which case Smith try stands. Added to which, how did EE forearm on De Groot not get reviewed when Cane tackle was: incompetence?
Better coaching can only take you so far while this mess continues.
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I remember around 11 I used to lurk around on a few rugby forums , and there were plenty from other countries cheering for France , and complaining about the ref afterwards and my answer was , they had their opportunities to win and didn’t take them.
So here we are , it feels like the shoe is on the other foot now, what goes around comes around and all that , so I’m not going to say too much without being a hypocrite.
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@kiwiinmelb ABs were best team in 2011, but no doubt France were pretty unlucky to lose final.
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@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I remember around 11 I used to lurk around on a few rugby forums , and there were plenty from other countries cheering for France , and complaining about the ref afterwards and my answer was , they had their opportunities to win and didn’t take them.
they kept 15 on 15. Refs swallow whistles in finals - I was thinking back to why we didn't go for a dropgoal; arguably that wins us the game. Tries were hard to come by, and always will be.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it? 😂
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
To paraphrase Foster, 'horses for courses'
SA played a game they thought would blunt the NZ attack
For the most part it worked
Rock beat scissors
But if you don't think SA can play another way I suggest you watch the URC and the European Cups
The SA teams can run them in as well as the NZ teams
Further to this, after the Ireland win Foster was asked who he would rather have in the final, England or SA. He answered " I don't care".
Right there I thought that we (SA) were going to win....the way he said it suggested to me that he was a little too arrogant about it. That is the old AB mentality, when other teams weren't close. Foster is lazy. -
@W32 I disagree, it is about focusing on yourselves, making sure you get your house in order, if you focus on the things you cant control (the opposition) then you have already lost.
Once they knew the opposition, then that changes things slightly, but you still need to make sure you are in the right place.
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@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Further to this, after the Ireland win Foster was asked who he would rather have in the final, England or SA. He answered " I don't care".
You're reading far too much into that reply. If Foster said, England, the media would have asked why. The same if his answer was SA. Maybe the wording could have been better (e.g., we have no preference) but I saw it as not giving the media any fuel.
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@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it? 😂
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
To paraphrase Foster, 'horses for courses'
SA played a game they thought would blunt the NZ attack
For the most part it worked
Rock beat scissors
But if you don't think SA can play another way I suggest you watch the URC and the European Cups
The SA teams can run them in as well as the NZ teams
Further to this, after the Ireland win Foster was asked who he would rather have in the final, England or SA. He answered " I don't care".
Right there I thought that we (SA) were going to win....the way he said it suggested to me that he was a little too arrogant about it. That is the old AB mentality, when other teams weren't close. Foster is lazy.Not sure he really believed that. He's been known to talk shit and non-speak
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@W32 I disagree, it is about focusing on yourselves, making sure you get your house in order, if you focus on the things you cant control (the opposition) then you have already lost.
Once they knew the opposition, then that changes things slightly, but you still need to make sure you are in the right place.
i get what youre saying but i kind of feel not looking at what the rest of the world is doing is a huge part of where fozzie has failed, he's just plugged away at whatever he wanted to do...and not addressed things like everyone else developing rush defence...then we get caught out trying to play a style that is relatively easily nullified
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't.100%. It's a typical Foster move to depart from a winning plan, just look at the pool game vs the French. Play as we did against Ireland and the ref is taken out of the equation as we would have led in the game and made the saffas chase us
Yeah, see the minor issue..?
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I remember around 11 I used to lurk around on a few rugby forums , and there were plenty from other countries cheering for France , and complaining about the ref afterwards and my answer was , they had their opportunities to win and didn’t take them.
they kept 15 on 15. Refs swallow whistles in finals - I was thinking back to why we didn't go for a dropgoal; arguably that wins us the game. Tries were hard to come by, and always will be.
I'd say you need fast ball to set up for a drop goal, or you kicked has to be miles back to negate the possible charge down. It's difficult to get fast ball when you've been playing for an age a man down.
