RWC SF: England v Springboks
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You’ve elided my point.
If EJ was still the England coach and they’d choked like that, would the boys at the Telegraph/Mail etc be riding this nonsense or would they be calling the coach out for what was a humiliating failure to adapt to the boks’ in game tactical changes - changes that Borthwick ought to have prepared for.
Especially as getting humped at the scrum by the boks is a pro that should’ve been fixed in the four years since 2019.
The press is happy - accusing South Africans of racism sells far more papers than dry technical analysis of their shortcomings as a sporting nation.
On top of all this, I’d bet dollars to donuts there’s some PR manager pushing this for fear of what ought to be righteous anger at recklessly raising such an insidious allegation.
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I'm guessing the accusation of racism bites deeper for you Saffer brothers and I can understand your reaction but you're conflating two issues which really can't be conflated. Now I'm not saying here that Bongi is guilty (I can't be arsed typing Mbonambi all the time) and it really wouldn't surprise me if the confusion over some Afrikaans terminology is how things happened. My thoughts though are, and leaving aside any sensationalism from the UK press, is that normally staid, toe the line stakeholders like the RFU and Borthwick are not just pissed off but have come out strongly and said as much. These people do not stick their heads over the parapet on a whim. Are they pissed off with Bongi or are they pissed off that WR have not investigated the issue fully - I'd say the latter, but that is just my view of things.
As an aside if it turns out that Bongi IS guilty of the racial slur, it should be remembered that it is the actions of an individual and not a team, let alone a nation.
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It's quite intriguing this - in a load of bullshit sort of way.
First of all, BOK should have dealt with it on the field. Pulled SA in, said the facts they likely would have said they said xxxxx in Afrikaans, no offence intended, BOK, and likely Curry accept it and moved on. Done.
However, given this didn't happen and it instead followed the formal procedure then I think due process needs to be followed & England are right to take the moral high ground. Don't agree? Thats fine, but ask yourself if you'd feel the same in the reverse situation where Curry says it.
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@MajorRage Curry acted like a spoiled brat to be honest. Rugby players is suppose to play harder when they get sledged not run to the ref and have a moan. What happens on the field should stay on the field.
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@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@MajorRage Curry acted like a spoiled brat to be honest. Rugby players is suppose to play harder when they get sledged not run to the ref and have a moan. What happens on the field should stay on the field.
What should have happened?
Would it have been OK if Curry had responded with 'Shut your mouth you fat b**** c***' ?
It was just a sledge after all
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@booboo said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
The big question is why the RFU are doubling down.
This is a really interesting question.
There's no reverse of result
So there seems to be some thought of protecting their guy. They really think they're right.
Or they’re piston wristed gibbons trying to save face
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@MajorRage Yes I would. Willie is doing this all the time and it pisses me off.
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@Dodge said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
No due process, repeat accusation, can only imagine the gnashing of teeth if the accusation had been the other way around. The abuse Tom Curry has received online is shameful
Do you think WR would have done anything different if the accusation had been the other way around? Online abuse unfortunately is now par for the course, guilty or innocent…. Just ask Cobus Reinach.
You can be forgiven for being a bit one eyed, might be time to move on now ay? -
@MiketheSnow Pretty sure his Saffer team mates have learn him the right sledge words like Coenie Oosthuizen.
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@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
I'm guessing the accusation of racism bites deeper for you Saffer brothers and I can understand your reaction but you're conflating two issues which really can't be conflated. Now I'm not saying here that Bongi is guilty (I can't be arsed typing Mbonambi all the time) and it really wouldn't surprise me if the confusion over some Afrikaans terminology is how things happened. My thoughts though are, and leaving aside any sensationalism from the UK press, is that normally staid, toe the line stakeholders like the RFU and Borthwick are not just pissed off but have come out strongly and said as much. These people do not stick their heads over the parapet on a whim. Are they pissed off with Bongi or are they pissed off that WR have not investigated the issue fully - I'd say the latter, but that is just my view of things.
As an aside if it turns out that Bongi IS guilty of the racial slur, it should be remembered that it is the actions of an individual and not a team, let alone a nation.
Check my post above where I tried to explain why it bites deeper.
And re my bolding - I can understand you guessing, but the RFU know that it does.
I didn’t expect the RFU to soberly apologize for the damage its bullshit has caused and to examine its inherent biases and affirm that celebrates the boks ongoing success in fighting racism. They’re a bag of rancid ratKants. I’d hoped for better from Borthwick. But incentives when you’re under pressure are bloody difficult to resist.
I do hope for better from ferners. WR conducted a thorough investigation looking at all available evidence including footage, audio and evidence from both teams. Borthwick, Curry and the RFU got their chance to put their best foot forward and couldn’t produce sufficient evidence to merit putting it before a disciplinary panel.
As Tim explains clearly here (link text, WR conducted an investigation according to its protocols which determined there was insufficient evidence to proceed with charges. Curry got due process. If he’d had an ounce of sense or reasonable advice he wouldn’t have sought it, but having done so the sensible course was to apologize and commit himself to examining his own prejudice.
I’ve got some sympathy for him.
But bugger all for Borthwick and the RFU who knew they were making an inflammatory, stigmatizing allegation, all the more so because of SA’s racist history and what this team and Bongi represent to South Africans working to overcome that awful legacy. They also must’ve known there was a good chance Curry was mistaken.
So while we should and must deal with all discrimination, given the obvious frailties in the evidence, it was cynical to push it in the first place given how little was actually at stake for Curry.
This was hardly a Rosa Parks (or William Wilberforce meeting the PM under an Oak) type of moment. A man who fought his way to the pinnacle of his sport through the structural racism of SA rugby from Bethlehem’s townships calling an Old Oundelian a white fluffybunny just doesn’t register as derogatory.
Anyway, I’m off to go relax in a gentleman’s way whilst watching the 36-0 game, or maybe the scrums from the 2019 final. Who am I kidding? Won’t take any longer than Pollie’s kick on Sat that got this whole shameful episode started.
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@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@MajorRage Curry acted like a spoiled brat to be honest. Rugby players is suppose to play harder when they get sledged not run to the ref and have a moan. What happens on the field should stay on the field.
As it goes, this is basically what I think about insults on the field, but then I have the advantage of being middle class, pale, male whale and stale, so almost anything you could say to me would be water off a ducks back privilege wise. we don’t live in a world where race based insults are accepted, on that basis they should all be treated the same with the same level of commitment to investigation.
I couldn’t care less about the original offended, I am just somewhat shocked at the reaction to Curry
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@Smuts said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
I'm guessing the accusation of racism bites deeper for you Saffer brothers and I can understand your reaction but you're conflating two issues which really can't be conflated. Now I'm not saying here that Bongi is guilty (I can't be arsed typing Mbonambi all the time) and it really wouldn't surprise me if the confusion over some Afrikaans terminology is how things happened. My thoughts though are, and leaving aside any sensationalism from the UK press, is that normally staid, toe the line stakeholders like the RFU and Borthwick are not just pissed off but have come out strongly and said as much. These people do not stick their heads over the parapet on a whim. Are they pissed off with Bongi or are they pissed off that WR have not investigated the issue fully - I'd say the latter, but that is just my view of things.
As an aside if it turns out that Bongi IS guilty of the racial slur, it should be remembered that it is the actions of an individual and not a team, let alone a nation.
Check my post above where I tried to explain why it bites deeper.
And re my bolding - I can understand you guessing, but the RFU know that it does.
I didn’t expect the RFU to soberly apologize for the damage its bullshit has caused and to examine its inherent biases and affirm that celebrates the boks ongoing success in fighting racism. They’re a bag of rancid ratKants. I’d hoped for better from Borthwick. But incentives when you’re under pressure are bloody difficult to resist.
I do hope for better from ferners. WR conducted a thorough investigation looking at all available evidence including footage, audio and evidence from both teams. Borthwick, Curry and the RFU got their chance to put their best foot forward and couldn’t produce sufficient evidence to merit putting it before a disciplinary panel.
As Tim explains clearly here (link text, WR conducted an investigation according to its protocols which determined there was insufficient evidence to proceed with charges. Curry got due process. If he’d had an ounce of sense or reasonable advice he wouldn’t have sought it, but having done so the sensible course was to apologize and commit himself to examining his own prejudice.
I’ve got some sympathy for him.
But bugger all for Borthwick and the RFU who knew they were making an inflammatory, stigmatizing allegation, all the more so because of SA’s racist history and what this team and Bongi represent to South Africans working to overcome that awful legacy. They also must’ve known there was a good chance Curry was mistaken.
So while we should and must deal with all discrimination, given the obvious frailties in the evidence, it was cynical to push it in the first place given how little was actually at stake for Curry.
This was hardly a Rosa Parks (or William Wilberforce meeting the PM under an Oak) type of moment. A man who fought his way to the pinnacle of his sport through the structural racism of SA rugby from Bethlehem’s townships calling an Old Oundelian a white fluffybunny just doesn’t register as derogatory.
Anyway, I’m off to go relax in a gentleman’s way whilst watching the 36-0 game, or maybe the scrums from the 2019 final. Who am I kidding? Won’t take any longer than Pollie’s kick on Sat that got this whole shameful episode started.
And here in a nut shell, is the bullshit hypocrisy of the 21st century. Cynical to report it, disgusting of Borthwick and RFU shouldn’t make a fuss because of South Africa’s legacy, doesn’t matter anyway as Curry is white etc etc.
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"we don’t live in a world where race based insults are accepted, on that basis they should all be treated the same with the same level of commitment to investigation."
Are you saying race base insults are accepted in South Africa?
