RWC QF: France v South Africa
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@Dodge said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
I would be tempted to agree, but in the spirit of being nerdy (what can i say, i enjoy the mental gymnastics), he also raised his leg to block the passing lane, it was an attempt to stop the pass way more than it was an attempt to catch the ball, he did appear to try to knock it backwards but if it went forwards then i would have had no issue with a yellow card and a penalty try. Had that happened, the Saffas would have argued he was trying to catch it and had a realistic chance, for which i would also have had some sympathy.
I think this is a perfect example of rugby laws not being able to be interpreted in a black and white fashion and I don't have a problem with that
I see this as very black and white. He tried to knock it backwards, therefore absolute certainty that it was not an intentional knock on.
Secondly, kicking the ball or blocking a pass is not illegal.
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@booboo if I "try" to knock the ball backwards and in the process get it slightly wrong, the ball can still go forward.
His action was to try and knock the ball down/back - the pro-French argument (not that it matters now) is whether he succeeded in doing so.
I can try and catch the ball for an intercept with both hands, but still knock it on.
If I knock the ball forward and deny a clear scoring opportunity at the try line, I shouldn't be surprised if I get sanctioned. In that scenario it is a penalty and a yellow card at least, if not a penalty try too as the try would likely have been scored if the transgression had not happened.
Are refs adjudicating on what a player is attempting to do or on what actually happens?
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@Tordah said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
Re the Etzebeth thing:
Most refs tend to rule any loss of possession that does not clearly go backwards as a knock on, same with deliberate actions. I don't think many people would be outraged had Etzebeth gotten a YC there for a deliberate knock on, as the ball did not clearly go backwards. You don't want ugly play like this rewarded.Anyone remember the Super Rugby match between the Bulls and Brumbies, when Jonker (haha) ruled this as play on? Technically, he might have been correct, it looks like, but everyone was expecting a knock on call.
I would have been outraged as it was anything but ugly. It was extremely clever and athletic. Dude knew the laws and tried to knock it backwards.
Your video, as bad a decision as it is, is not really relevant to this discussion.
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@Dodge said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
Are you arguing that because he tried to tap it back, if it then went forward, it shouldn't be a penalty / yellow?
I'm not @bones but if you had asked me YES.
The offence is INTENTIONAL knock forward.
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@Bones said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
If it's above the knee,
Pretty sure that's not a knock on.
Knock on off the arm, shoulder down.
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@pakman said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
The refs have tied themselves in knots. For me it was plain that EE was trying to knock the ball backwards.
Irrespective of what the ref's 'guidance' says, the common sense approach is that is not a deliberate knock on.
THIS!
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@Dan54 said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@stodders said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@TeWaio Slippery slope there. There was nothing wrong with the French pass that Etzebeth slapped down. Etzebeth took the risk, not the French passer. He got away with it. I imagine he wouldn't if Wayne Barnes was reffing
I thought he had his hand in front of ball and was trying to reef/knock it backwards, and that was why I thought BOK got it right. I definitely didn't see it as a knock down. But then again I haven't ben back to study it again, as I not sure I would get anything out of it.
Again, knock DOWN is not illegal.
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@stodders said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@booboo if I "try" to knock the ball backwards and in the process get it slightly wrong, the ball can still go forward.
His action was to try and knock the ball down/back - the pro-French argument (not that it matters now) is whether he succeeded in doing so.
I can try and catch the ball for an intercept with both hands, but still knock it on.
If I knock the ball forward and deny a clear scoring opportunity at the try line, I shouldn't be surprised if I get sanctioned. In that scenario it is a penalty and a yellow card at least, if not a penalty try too as the try would likely have been scored if the transgression had not happened.
Are refs adjudicating on what a player is attempting to do or on what actually happens?
But in trying to knock it backwards you are NOT intentionally knocking it forward.
NOT a penalisable offence.
Scrum.
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@booboo said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@Bones said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
If it's above the knee,
Pretty sure that's not a knock on.
Knock on off the arm, shoulder down.
Takes me back to the old Los "chip" off the thigh. I was sure they changed the interpretation after that.
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@Bones said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@booboo said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@Bones said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
If it's above the knee,
Pretty sure that's not a knock on.
Knock on off the arm, shoulder down.
Takes me back to the old Los "chip" off the thigh. I was sure they changed the interpretation after that.
Pretty sure I saw Andy Marinos do something similar a year or three before ...
The difference being the ball bouncing off you rather than playing from possession.
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@booboo OK, so any player can intentionally knock on on their try line without penalty sanction purely by ensuring they hook their mitt around it and looking like they are knocking it backwards.
Should be interesting
I think it was where the penalty occured and the situation that had unfolded that has led to this debate. Not sure anyone would have overly grumbled if it was in the French half. Maybe that is part of the problem though.
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@stodders said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@booboo OK, so any player can intentionally knock on on their try line without penalty sanction purely by ensuring they hook their mitt around it and looking like they are knocking it backwards.
Should be interesting
I think it was where the penalty occured and the situation that had unfolded that has led to this debate. Not sure anyone would have overly grumbled if it was in the French half. Maybe that is part of the problem though.
Massive leap in logic there.
An intentional knock on is illegal.
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@stodders said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@booboo Michalak was trying to pass the ball backwards in 2007 QF
No he wasn't.
But the ref (who was the ref?) ruled it went backwards.
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Anyway ... just thought I'd add my thoughts.
Hoping I've not been too ambiguous ...
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@booboo said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
The difference being the ball bouncing off you rather than playing from possession
Gets murky eh, is chest or shoulder a knock on? Dollars to donuts anytime someone tries to catch a kick/pass and it goes forward off shoulder/chest/thigh it gets called knock on.
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great effort Booboo. Loving this entirely theoretical rugby law chat.
If you go for a ball without trying to catch it to block a pass and it goes forwards, then I would suggest that could be considered an intentional knock on, as you intended not to catch it and you knocked it on...
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@booboo said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
@Frank said in RWC QF: France v South Africa:
I came here for a bit of game analysis and all I can find are nerds talking about law interpretations.
And you repeat yourself.
Well there could be a guest spot here by SBW or Marshall talking about law interpretations...
