Canes vs Chiefs

taniwharugby

When the Highlanders went to golden oldies v the Force, they didnt have the rule enforced where they had to drop a player did they, they remained at 15 v 15?
 
Is this rule the same for all levels of rugby?

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="575470" data-time="1461832651">I see it as a situation where, live, everyone would have thought "that could be will full manipulation to get depowered scrums" - paraphrasing Dane Coles 
Some purposely edited video footage appears of what could be considered "suspect" and people raising that question 
And Chiefs fans point blank refuting Rennie could, would or did cheat. Led by you and your sciatica theory 
The vehemence has come from Chief's fans denials not the accusations.</blockquote>
The refuting from me has come after hearing the other side of the story not before. 
Check back in this thread and the insinuations are similar to those in the herald with only a selective view. 
I don't see the accusers explaining why the trainers were treating the player well before the so called evidence. 
I understand why there were suspicions. I just don't understand why the still exist, or are amplified to calling Rennie a liar and cheat after he has explained the full story. That's just choosing to ignore evidence contrary to your half baked views.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="575470" data-time="1461832651">
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I see it as a situation where, live, everyone would have thought "that could be will full manipulation to get depowered scrums" - paraphrasing Dane Coles
 
Some purposely edited video footage appears of what could be considered "suspect" and people raising that question
 
And Chiefs fans point blank refuting Rennie could, would or did cheat. Led by you and your sciatica theory
 
The vehemence has come from Chief's fans denials not the accusations.
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</blockquote>
 
 
You are just making stuff up.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="575428" data-time="1461822560">
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I am dismissing that video and the commentary... yes. The commentary is laughable.sayRennie 
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I dismissed the video as proving precisely nothing. What other proof is there of dishonesty?
Where did I say that point blank that Rennie would cheat? I just said that evidence was crap.
 
Have you been taking lessons from Gollum on how to just make stuff up?

No Quarter

There's no doubt the golden oldies scrum saved the Chiefs pack further embarrassment, but as it was they were reduced to 14 men and we exploited that perfectly until Woodward dropped the bloody ball with the line open. 
Players go off injured all the time for a variety of reasons, it's not something you can easily clamp down on as player safety has to be paramount. If the Chiefs prop has a sore back then the last thing the medics will want is him getting his head shoved up his own ass repeatedly, so no doubt the previous scrums played a part in the decision making. If the Chiefs scrum is dominating then he probably plays on. 
Yep it saved the Chiefs scrum, but it's not why they won. If the Canes want to look for reasons they lost then a mirror would be the best place to start.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="575480" data-time="1461833872">
<div>
You are just making stuff up.
 
 
I dismissed the video as proving precisely nothing. What other proof is there of dishonesty?
Where did I say that point blank that Rennie would cheat? I just said that evidence was crap.
 
Have you been taking lessons from Gollum on how to just make stuff up?
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</blockquote>
 
Yeah, next week's lesson he's going to show me how to quote myself

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="575476" data-time="1461833524">
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I guess the only way a team forced to concede to depowered scrums wouldn't be questioned is if that team had clear superiority in the scrum. i.e. if the Canes ran out of props in this case
 
Has that ever happened?
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</blockquote>
 
Pretty sure the Boks had the upper hand in the scrums last year at Ellis Park. They lost two props and then had to go to Golden Oldies. They didn't lose a player but should have from what I recall.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="575483" data-time="1461834350">
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Yeah, next week's lesson he's going to show me how to quote myself
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Well you have nailed the ability to make shit up, so maybe it s time for next lesson from him.

Toddy

ploughboy

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="575478" data-time="1461833675">
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When the Highlanders went to golden oldies v the Force, they didnt have the rule enforced where they had to drop a player did they, they remained at 15 v 15?
 
Is this rule the same for all levels of rugby?
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it was played in dunedin

Smudge

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Toddy" data-cid="575489" data-time="1461835688">
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<img src="http://i67.tinypic.com/snfj7s.jpg" alt="snfj7s.jpg">
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</blockquote>
 
I'm waiting for the trainer to bust out: "You could say I lost my faith in science and progress."

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Smudge" data-cid="575491" data-time="1461835810">
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I'm waiting for the trainer to bust out: "You could say I lost my faith in science and progress."
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</blockquote>
 
You don't have to pull out the red card

MajorRage

I just checked the future. Apparently the sun comes up tomorrow, and nobody gives a shit about this non-event anymore.
 
Well at least that was the case before Rennie spoke out.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="575492" data-time="1461836293">
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You don't have to pull out the red card
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I say that to my wife one week a month.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="575493" data-time="1461836310">
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Well at least that was the case before RÌ¶eÌ¶nÌ¶nÌ¶iÌ¶eÌ¶ Ì¶sÌ¶pÌ¶oÌ¶kÌ¶eÌ¶ Ì¶oÌ¶uÌ¶tÌ¶ some anorak-wearing no-life Hurricanes fan made a video
 
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</blockquote>
 
ftfy

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="575494" data-time="1461836336">
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I say that to my wife one week a month.
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 No you don't.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="575486" data-time="1461834628">
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Pretty sure the Boks had the upper hand in the scrums last year at Ellis Park. They lost two props and then had to go to Golden Oldies. They didn't lose a player but should have from what I recall.
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</blockquote>
 
Indeed. The Laws of the Game Rugby Union are most clear.
 
Law 3: Section 3.6: Clause (d) clearly states, "In a squad of 23 players, or at the discretion of the Union/match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced."

Stormk84

That herald article is a joke. Pure hypothesis on the part of the narrator. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? 
Chiefs scrum had sucked for past couple Seasons, and even in some close games. And yet this is the first time I've seen golden oldies rule being applied. I'll give Rennie the benefit of the doubt for that.

Milk

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11630438'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11630438</a>
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Gregor Paul: Chiefs conspiracy claims easy to counter 
The best teams do what they feel they have to do to win. It depends on emotional allegiance as to how grey area incidents are judged and that's arguably the key thing to keep in mind when considering the debate around the Chiefs and their front row shuffling against the Hurricanes. 
If the All Blacks had done something similar against the Boks, New Zealanders would be praising the smartness of coach Steve Hansen and urging South Africans to move on; to believe there was no scandal or manipulation of the rules. 
So maybe it would be best if a similar approach was applied now and for there to be universal acceptance that there really isn't much of a controversy here. 
What really happened was that the Chiefs shifted the risk in the last five minutes. They removed the prospect of conceding a kickable scrum penalty, but greatly increased the chances of the Hurricanes scoring a try. 
Given the way Hurricanes first-five Beauden Barrett had kicked that night and the way he had run, the Chiefs weren't being greatly advantaged by the depowered scrums. 
That was surely evidenced when Barrett sliced through in the last play of the game and delivered the perfect pass to Jason Woodward. 
If, as he should have, the Hurricanes fullback had caught that and fallen over the line, the scrummaging scandal would never have erupted. 
There would have been no implication that the Chiefs, defending a one-point lead with five minutes left, were advantaged by being reduced to 14 men. 
As for the rest of the story ... well, for every conspiracy claim, there is a legitimate reply from the Chiefs. 
To the question of whether Siate Tokolahi was genuinely injured, the conspiracy theory says he was fine right up until the point a trainer came on the field during a stoppage and told him he wasn't. Yet, as Rennie made clear in a heated rebuff, that same trainer had been on the field a few minutes earlier attending to Tokolahi's back. 
What's also apparent is that Tokolahi, admittedly not the most elegant or swift mover normally, is not exactly sprinting as he plods from the lineout to the last stoppage before he was replaced. 
The conspirators say the indecision about taking him off was a result of the episode being feigned and the penny taking a while to drop. The Chiefs say it was a genuine case of Tokolahi trying to battle on, unsure whether it was right or wrong to admit defeat and come off. 
This scenario plays out hundreds of times each season and no more memorably than the World Cup final where Kieran Read damaged his ankle badly in the opening five minutes and spent an age deliberating whether he could play on. And that's the thing with injuries - players are never certain of the extent of the damage, typified by the fact that Tawera Kerr-Barlow stayed on the field in Wellington despite having a broken hand. 
The conspiracy theory says the Chiefs were being dominated all night in the scrums and manipulated a shift to Golden Oldies to thwart the Hurricanes' obvious advantage. The more accurate picture is the Hurricanes went from being solid, or maybe a little more than that in the scrums, to being dominant in the two before Tokolahi came off. 
The best explanation for the Hurricanes' sudden scrummaging elevation is Tokolahi's back injury? The conspirators say that Rennie and the Chiefs coaching team weren't aware that the consequence of going to depowered scrums would be an enforced reduction to 14 men. 
But again, during the live broadcast it was clear that the Chiefs management team were told by the sideline official what the consequences of taking Tokolahi off would be before they committed to doing so. It also has to be pointed out that the Chiefs weren't under any obligation to have three men in their 23 who can play tighthead. 
Whether Siegfried Fisiihoi has or can play at tighthead is irrelevant - the Chiefs fulfilled their obligation to have two specialist tightheads, two specialist looseheads and two specialist hookers.
 
</blockquote>
 
This article probably reflects where I stand on the issue.
 
First of all, now that I know the team that forces uncontested scrums can't replace the injured player, I don't care whether the or not the team could technically press gang another player into propping the other side of the scrum. That's up to the coach/manager to decide. Having fulfilled their obligation to provide two props for each side of the scrum, if those 2 props get injured they have the choice to either play a less familiar in that position or play a man down. I'm happy with that. It's a bit harsh if you see two props stretchered off and there's no disputing their injuries, but oh well.
 
As to whether or not the player was really injured. I choose to believe Rennie. Maybe Tokolahi would have grimaced through it if the Chiefs were dominating the scrums, but again, now that I know they have to play a man down, I don't care either way.
 
If your team didn't force uncontested scrums, then take the props off so they can high five on the sideline for the rest of the game, bring on all your backs and loose forwards from the bench and force the one man advantage. And until this starts happening more than a few times a season, then I don't think it's a big problem. In 70 odd games coaching the Chiefs, Rennie said this is the first time his side has forced uncontested scrums.
 
By the by, I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on how much a scrum should be punished for being shit. On the one hand, scrums are an important part of rugby and if you can get away with having a bad one, a lot of teams will start playing a rugby league front row. On the other hand, it's tough to see a prop copping penalties and sin-binnings, usually reserved for cheaters, just for being shit.

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="575493" data-time="1461836310">
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I just checked the future. Apparently the sun comes up tomorrow, and nobody gives a shit about this non-event anymore.
 
Well at least that was the case before Rennie spoke out.
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</blockquote>
 
He's handled this badly. Feeling guilty maybe? :yes:

taniwharugby

No, the Half-story-Herald have handled this badly. 
If there is a genuine case to answer, SANZAR should be leading it, not the witch hunt that the HSH have tried. 
Rennie has simply reacted to being called a cheat and a liar

The Silver Fern

Canes vs Chiefs