RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks
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@Joans-Town-Jones Fair point. I think back to 2013 vs the Irish at Aviva stadium. Few teams would have pulled that back. Irish were on fire that day and still lost.
ABs were in a hole against Oz in Dunedin this year. They pulled through. Just saying.
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@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
He's played Scott Barrett there. Barrett has the engine and the power game to play 6.
I'm not sure if that is enough, I can see why Schalk Burger loves Scott at 6 (ferocity, workrate, size), but seems to me the 3 Barretts are star players but not glue players, they have unique attributes as individuals but they don't coordinate those around them so well. Seems to me there needs to be more of a glue person, a connector, in the loosies, (at 6 or 8, pref at 6) Ardie is closest but not close enough.
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@nostrildamus Frizell is a glue player? I'd say Ardie has the glue role in the AB backrow.
For me, the SA backrow of Kolisi, PSDT and Vermeulen has the best balance right now (though SA go with Wiese at 8 against NH teams it seems). Kolisi is the glue.
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@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@nostrildamus Frizell is a glue player? I'd say Ardie has the glue role in the AB backrow.
I thought I said Ardie was the closest? Frizell has parts of a glue player at times but I don't think he has a natural rugby game mind, he isn't that great a connector.
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@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones Fair point. I think back to 2013 vs the Irish at Aviva stadium. Few teams would have pulled that back. Irish were on fire that day and still lost.
ABs were in a hole against Oz in Dunedin this year. They pulled through. Just saying.
And that was a statement game missed. Also, a poor Wallabies side.
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@Joans-Town-Jones Are Italy any better than the Wallabies? If not, ABs have proven they can come back against decent teams (not very good ones mind).
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@nostrildamus you did. Apologies. I mis-read your post as saying the 6 should be the glue.
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@nostrildamus Who are the glue-like players in NZ rugby right now, who provide continuity and allow their colleagues to raise their game?
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@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones Are Italy any better than the Wallabies? If not, ABs have proven they can come back against decent teams (not very good ones mind).
Didn't Italy beat the Wallabies the last time they played? I'm not sure who the ABs have come back against in the last 4 years...
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@Joans-Town-Jones Yes, 28-27 in Nov 2022.
NZ came back against Scotland in Nov 2022. I think that's about it.
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Why do AB match threads always have to turn into reminiscence threads like old men in a rest home discussing “back in the day”?
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@pakman said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Cheer up, lads.
The French were bloody lucky to win that.
Their try after half time relied on a number of fortuitous events, including Jaco missing a relieving knock on.
The yellow had a much more subtle impact than the obvious. Not sure if it was some perception of guilt for not giving red or what, but for the next 15 minutes or so Jaco has hyper tough on us at breakdown and anything which was dropped assumed forwards. Meanwhile, counted him twice not pinging for same thing in their half and one heinous offside, which even ITV picked up, which was very kickable.
An even handed display in those 15 minutes and it'd have been 19-16 or even 16 all with ten to play.
That was the game in a nutshell.
ABs did many good things and were best team over first three quarters.
I expect French coaches will have lots of material for Monday review.
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@Billy-Tell It is a reminder of the possible
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones I think NZ coaches overplay the R&R element sometimes. Foster isn't alone here. It used to work when the depth was there and the drop off in quality was limited, but that isn't the case now.
A 90% fit JB is better than a 100% fit ALB for instance.
No point managing players for a QF/SF/Final if you get booted out at the pool stage.
The only way NZ lose to Italy is if they have 3 players sent off
We'll there will be 3 Barretts on the field...
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@Billy-Tell said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Why do AB match threads always have to turn into reminiscence threads like old men in a rest home discussing “back in the day”?
I always wonder that too mate, I keep saying that waht we did before really has not any bearing on how we should or could play today. To harp back is to assume that the rest of the world hasn't got better. The game is in a real great spot, where I don't actually see any teams really dominating for long stretches of time anymore. It's a mixture of a well balanced team, with at least 3-4 players that would make a World XV you need to be confident (we lack the 3-4?). But outside that you can still win a WC with luck etc in knockout games anyway.
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@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
ABs were in a hole against Oz in Dunedin this year. They pulled through. Just saying.
Which ABs pulled through?
That game was totally wasted, because Foster is a dumb fluffybunny. He swapped the entire team, meaning we learned nothing about how player X would go slotted in to the A team in case of injury, we missed the oppportunity to develop useful combinations, and equally we learned nothing about how the ABs pull through under pressure, because that was not the ABs we were watching against SA or against France, or will be in the QF.
Seriously, what a fucking idiot. If for example he had played the A team, with Vaai at 6 or Finau at 6, maybe then we don't need to see a failed experiment against France in the WC? -
@reprobate said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
ABs were in a hole against Oz in Dunedin this year. They pulled through. Just saying.
Which ABs pulled through?
That game was totally wasted, because Foster is a dumb fluffybunny. He swapped the entire team, meaning we learned nothing about how player X would go slotted in to the A team in case of injury, we missed the oppportunity to develop useful combinations, and equally we learned nothing about how the ABs pull through under pressure, because that was not the ABs we were watching against SA or against France, or will be in the QF.
Seriously, what a fucking idiot. If for example he had played the A team, with Vaai at 6 or Finau at 6, maybe then we don't need to see a failed experiment against France in the WC?Absolutely. The guy is an idiot. He has a dead rubber which is like gold in RWC year. Huge opportunity to give fringe players game reps. 3 to 4 changes maximum, but all of the subs should have been allowed to play with the core of the first team
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Spiro Zavos on the roar is right on the money about the abs
The media has pointed out that this is the first time the All Blacks have lost a match in the pool stages of the tournament. As the Springboks proved in winning the RWC 2019 tournament, teams or one team at least since the tournament started in 1987 can win after losing in the pool round.
But what has not really been acknowledged is that 27-13 scoreline was the worst ever inflicted on the All Blacks in the history of the RWC tournament.
It is obvious now, or should be, that the All Blacks’ selector coaches have made a massive mistake in not entrusting the team four years ago to the playmaking leadership of Richie Mo’unga, the way previous RWC-winning All Black sides were entrusted to one playmaker, mainly Grant Fox in 1987 and Dan Carter in 2011 and 2015.
In the match against France, Barrett seemed to play in the line more than Mo’unga who was camped at fullback for long periods of play. The effect of this meant that there was no consistent method in the way the All Blacks tried to counter the France’s arrow-like rush defence.
Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
This is elementary 101 playmaking theory. All Blacks coach Ian Foster, a former No.10 himself, should know this.
He should also know that Beauden Barrett, one of the great players of his era, is a shadow of his former self as a player. In my opinion, the terrible concussion he suffered in the 2022 Test against Ireland at Aviva Stadium has had a dulling effect on his former brilliant running game.
This infatuation with the two playmakers’ game and poor selection has also impacted on the positions key players have been placed.
Barrett at this time in his career could be used as a reserve who could play cameos at fullback or No.10.
Will Jordan should be the starting fullback for the All Blacks.Jordan as a fullback, as he does for the Crusaders, would be mainly running where he is a match-winner and occasionally putting in kicks. He would not be subjected to the ordeal as he was against France of having to chase Barrett’s high kicks, most of them too long and not high enough, with the risk of getting his timing wrong.
As it was he failed to snatch any of the high balls the French backs were challenged with. But he was yellow-carded once and could easily have been charged again which would have been red card territory and dangerous ground for him as far as staying in the tournament.
The official excuse for the high ball tactic by the All Blacks apparently was that it would conserve the energy of the players in the torrid heated conditions.
But chasing 30m or so time and again in the heat cannot be described as a conservation policy. It was madness. It failed to achieve anything other than tiring a brilliant runner and exposing him to injury or a card or two.
When I watched Jordan, a natural and gifted try-scorer, being required to chase high ball I thought that it was a disgrace rather like requiring Phar Lap to compete in a steeplechase race.
The original sin, though, with this All Black side was the selection of Sam Cane as captain before 2020 season had actually started.
In the past, All Black captains were selected from certain starters in the run-on side. This is the way the Australian cricket captain, a similar sort of position, is chosen. History shows that for both teams selecting someone assured of his position in the side as captain works well.
The problem that Foster created for himself and any team he selected with this first decision as the All Black new coach was that there was a much better player available for the number 7 jersey, Ardie Savea.
His solution of playing Savea at number 8 merely enhances the coach-created problem. Savea at 103 kg – 190 cm is big for a number 7 but far too small for a number 8.
Savea is the best loose forward in the All Blacks’ pack. But he is not the best number 8 available. Even though he invariably plays well, as he did against France, the loose forward trio is unbalanced with him at number 8.
This is a position where size is important. Kieran Read, on the small side as number 8, was 111 kg – 193 cm. The current Springbok number 8 Duane Vermeullen plays at 120 kg – 193 cm.There is a rugby adage that goes to the crux of the problem that All Blacks could not solve against France: The team that controls the advantage line wins the game.
The All Blacks could not control the advantage line against France because they lacked the power and muscle to dominate the French pack.
The All Blacks pack, unlike the Wallabies, say, in their match against Georgia, played small, not big.
They were pressurised by a big French pack playing big into conceding 13 penalties to the five penalties conceded by France.Six of the All Blacks penalties were conceded on attack and seven were conceded on defence. This suggests that the All Blacks were under pressure when they had the ball and when France had the ball.
The French also were able to off-load 15 times to the seven times achieved by the All Blacks.
The all-important battle of the collisions as these statistics and the scoreline indicate was won around the field by France.Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese philosopher on war, postulated that ‘the battle is won before it is fought.’
Rugby is not warfare. But it is a war game, If the All Blacks keep the same tactics, the same backline and forward strategies and selections they played against France I fear that their battle to win the 2023 RWC tournament has already been lost.
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones I think NZ coaches overplay the R&R element sometimes. Foster isn't alone here. It used to work when the depth was there and the drop off in quality was limited, but that isn't the case now.
A 90% fit JB is better than a 100% fit ALB for instance.
No point managing players for a QF/SF/Final if you get booted out at the pool stage.
The only way NZ lose to Italy is if they have 3 players sent off
jesus...talk about jinxing us
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@stodders said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones In fairness, he's had 3 full years. 2020 was a washout.
Again, in fairness, he's been lucky to have had 3 years given what happened in 2021/2022.
only 3 years? Sorry but I think that's a cop out. Why didn't AI and PGS work out?
Because they weren't good enough?
Hell, PGS played one test?
Shouldn't have had one.
Fozzie hasn't allowed the team to play out. Case in point. 2022. Finally may have found a decent 12 in JB. Then chopped and changed the team. They've only played 6 tests this year and the last 3 have been over 7 weeks. If Fozzie's time was so limited, why didn't he settle on a team earlier?
What's the point in settling on a team if constituent parts aren't working to the standard necessary?
What are odds he will field 3 completely different sides over the next 4 weeks...
Fairly high I should imagine given injuries within the squad and making sure all of the squad get some game time.
I find it odd that people complain that a coach doesn't develop depth, or persists with players they think aren't up to scratch, and also complain that the team isn't constantly selected.
At a higher level we just need to be cognisant that we've come off the best All Black team ever. Forget the Invincibles, we've had our expectations set by a team that had centurions, GOAT, DC, Nonu, Kaino, etc.
