6N Ireland v England
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
If he did that, I can't see that the coach would have picked him ever again!
Works for Smith.
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
If he did that, I can't see that the coach would have picked him ever again!
Works for Smith.
Except he was dropped đ
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
I don't see what, other than attempting a wrap, Steward could have done.
Yeah that definitely would have caused less damage than offering up a nice hard shoulder.
The thing is though that the shoulder was not the issue, it was head on elbow, with the arm more or less straight down. Thatâs round about waist height for Keenanâs head. How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
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@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
Yes
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
a) living in the planet of real time thinking on slow motions movements
b) having no thoughts about Keenan's role in the collisiona) Yeah, dismiss us as not being able to watch a replay at full speed, ok cool.
Well then stop saying all these different thoughts that Steward should have had in timeframe shorter than it takes you write the word "the". Theres talk that he tried to disguise things, move completely out of path to avoid him completely. Neither of things were allowed by the time taken after the crap pass.
The best point you make here is that Steward should have continued on with trying to make a legal tackle & not pulled out of it. I agree with this.
b) Keenan was the attacker, it's not on him - sure he dips, but that doesn't mean Steward can go in upright.
Yes, this is correct. However even if Steward had gone for the legal tackle as you argue (and I agree), his head still would have been first contact, and if Steward had been going low, it quite possibly would have been into Steward's chin. That would have been ridiculously dangerous.
This is why I view it more as a rugby incident, than a red card incident. I think Steward was damend either way.
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
How low do you have to go to tackle below the shoulder?
Yes
.... is not an answer
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@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:
Youâd think that Steward ought to have gone low and for the wrap, but then Keenan is already low so the possibility of head on head is increased. If the wrap is there and the tackle low does that make head on head contact then irrelevant? If so does that make something of a mockery of the player welfare thing?
Iâm not looking at this argument to white knight Steward, just trying to see if there is a way out in these instances. Weâve seen a lot of comments on what Steward did wrong but apart from ânot be in that positionâ not much about what he should have done.
Mike summed it up nicely, but Steward obviously came flying in to make a tackle, right? So attempt a legal tackle. At least then there's mitigation - his action wasn't at all to benefit anyone but himself. Even if he hadn't turned side on, what's the damage to him? He'd obviously got himself into a position where he wasn't going to be able to control the contact and this is what players need to learn - if you want to do that, go for it, but you run the risk.
I agree with @MajorRage that Steward slowed abruptly, possibly thinking that he expected the ref to blow the whistle, but it's his actions at the end that can't be defended. He turns his body, heightens and protects himself by a clearly outlawed action. Any defender has the obligation to make their impact on an attacker safe. Steward didn't do this. Quite the opposite.
I don't think there was malice. I think it still needs to be penalised to protect the attacker. And these days it's a RC.
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Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
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@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
Because thats what played out right in front of Steward and what I believe he took his actions on.
Lack of indication or award, given the time frame, is not relevant.
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Just an observation on the Steward discussion. If a lot of knowledgeable people have been watching replays & discussing this intelligently for the last 3 days and still can't come to an agreement on a RC, how do we expect the Ref to come to the right decision after 2-3 replays in a couple of minutes?
I think we all agree the whole Red Card issue is a mess and there's no simple answer, but what's off-pissing is the lack of even trying to sort it out at Test Level (like they have at SR level) which is frustrating and making Test Rugby a much poorer experience for players and fans alike.
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@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
Because thats what played out right in front of Steward and what I believe he took his actions on.
Lack of indication or award, given the time frame, is not relevant.
So Steward assessed the situation incorrectly?
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Upvote purely for the introduction of "off-pissing".
But aside from that, you have a point.
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@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:
Why is there continued focus on the 'forward pass' when none was ever indicated or awarded?
Because thats what played out right in front of Steward and what I believe he took his actions on.
Lack of indication or award, given the time frame, is not relevant.
So Steward assessed the situation incorrectly?
It is, and became, completely irrelevant.
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@Victor-Meldrew not sure anybody is arguing that Peyper got it completely wrong, are they?
He reffd to the rules, for sure.
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@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:
@Victor-Meldrew not sure anybody is arguing that Peyper got it completely wrong, are they?
He reffd to the rules, for sure.
My point is that while the rules are clear-cut to help the Refs come to a decision quickly, those rules can be tweaked to allow better decisions to be made by taking away the time pressure.
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I think if Keenan doesnât gather the ball then itâs called as a rugby incident, possibly a penalty to Ireland but probably not. Once Keenan does gather the ball the whole scenario changes because the obligation is now on Steward to make a legal tackle or avoid contact, and he does neither.
Awards for concussion injuries are a massive financial threat to World Rugby and individual Unions so I wouldnât be holding my breath waiting for a change of interpretation anytime soon.
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The correct call.
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@pakman said in 6N Ireland v England:
Panel has rescinded Steward's Red card.
Which makes a mockery of the guidelines.
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@pakman said in 6N Ireland v England:
Panel has rescinded Steward's Red card.
Found Yellow was sufficient. Keenan was bent at waist, which for me ought to have counted for something.
10-9 at 61 suggests we were denied a humdinger of an ending.
