6N Ireland v England

[Catogrande]

@antipodean said in 6N Ireland v England:

Perhaps the outrage and indignation about this RC may encourage NH teams to advocate for the 20 min RC.

That aside, as a defender you place yourself in postitions where you need to make good decisions. Steward didn't and he owes the person he's about to shoulder charge better execution.

I see no difference between this and SBW's RC.

“About to shoulder charge..” 😂

I’ve got no issue with the red card, letter of the law and all that, but that level of hyperbole is laughable and does nothing in trying to make sense of where we are and where we’re going in this contentious issue.

[Steve]

@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:

@antipodean said in 6N Ireland v England:

Perhaps the outrage and indignation about this RC may encourage NH teams to advocate for the 20 min RC.

That aside, as a defender you place yourself in postitions where you need to make good decisions. Steward didn't and he owes the person he's about to shoulder charge better execution.

I see no difference between this and SBW's RC.

“About to shoulder charge..” 😂

I’ve got no issue with the red card, letter of the law and all that, but that level of hyperbole is laughable and does nothing in trying to make sense of where we are and where we’re going in this contentious issue.

The black and white-ness with which it is being discussed from some quarters is contrarian, disingenuous or I suspect downright rancid bait.

[Bones]

@Steve said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:

@antipodean said in 6N Ireland v England:

Perhaps the outrage and indignation about this RC may encourage NH teams to advocate for the 20 min RC.

That aside, as a defender you place yourself in postitions where you need to make good decisions. Steward didn't and he owes the person he's about to shoulder charge better execution.

I see no difference between this and SBW's RC.

“About to shoulder charge..” 😂

I’ve got no issue with the red card, letter of the law and all that, but that level of hyperbole is laughable and does nothing in trying to make sense of where we are and where we’re going in this contentious issue.

The black and white-ness with which it is being discussed from some quarters is contrarian, disingenuous or I suspect downright rancid bait.

You might want to just take some time for reflection eh, that's tasty rich from the guy who agrees Steward pulled out.

I'd suggest if that's your pull out game, you might wanna check for unknown offspring.

[MajorRage]

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

Tries to avoid hitting him, hands down, turning away.

What's better, opening his body up and carrying on with the tackle, or even at least starting to drop - or turning your body and tucking the arm so that your nice, soft elbow/shoulder is pointed at the opposition player? I can't think of much worse he could have done.

I reckon I know which Keenan's face would have preferred.

Players need to stop having a first instinct to throw out the shoulder charge if they get caught out and can't control the collision.

Do you live in a slow motion world? Or real time.

It looks terrible in slow motion.

Steward is not trying to ensure an arm to head contact. He’s coming up to defend, legally. The pass is an abortion. Steward slows and turns away as soon as he sees this. Mind off, attack over scrum white. Done.

But Keenan gets low to get the ball, and on his way up smashes his face into the turning away Steward and concusses himself. I’m not surprised it happened. When you go low and use acceleration to go back up your head is properly moving. Done this many times.

It’s not Stewards fault, not at all.

As I said initially, I care naught about bullshit rules. Nothing that happened was worthy of a game changing red card.

[Duluth]

Here’s a video of the incident that’s being discussed

[antipodean]

@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:

@antipodean said in 6N Ireland v England:

Perhaps the outrage and indignation about this RC may encourage NH teams to advocate for the 20 min RC.

That aside, as a defender you place yourself in postitions where you need to make good decisions. Steward didn't and he owes the person he's about to shoulder charge better execution.

I see no difference between this and SBW's RC.

“About to shoulder charge..” 😂

I’ve got no issue with the red card, letter of the law and all that, but that level of hyperbole is laughable and does nothing in trying to make sense of where we are and where we’re going in this contentious issue.

Feel free to use whatever term you want to describe the motion of turning your body away and leading with an arm pinned to your side.

[MiketheSnow]

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

[The Irishman]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

[Steve]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

Tries to avoid hitting him, hands down, turning away.

What's better, opening his body up and carrying on with the tackle, or even at least starting to drop - or turning your body and tucking the arm so that your nice, soft elbow/shoulder is pointed at the opposition player? I can't think of much worse he could have done.

I reckon I know which Keenan's face would have preferred.

Players need to stop having a first instinct to throw out the shoulder charge if they get caught out and can't control the collision.

Do you live in a slow motion world? Or real time.

It looks terrible in slow motion.

Steward is not trying to ensure an arm to head contact. He’s coming up to defend, legally. The pass is an abortion. Steward slows and turns away as soon as he sees this. Mind off, attack over scrum white. Done.

But Keenan gets low to get the ball, and on his way up smashes his face into the turning away Steward and concusses himself. I’m not surprised it happened. When you go low and use acceleration to go back up your head is properly moving. Done this many times.

It’s not Stewards fault, not at all.

As I said initially, I care naught about bullshit rules. Nothing that happened was worthy of a game changing red card.

Superb post. Wish I could upvote it twice.

[MiketheSnow]

@The-Irishman said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

So the contact from Steward created the knock on

So Keenan was in possession when he was hit by Steward

So Steward should have made a tackle

He didn’t, and in the process of turning away from the ball carrier his elbow made contact with the ball carrier’s head

Can’t see why anyone is aggrieved and/or unsure why he got a red

[mariner4life]

oh i know why he got a red, the process was followed perfectly. The refs couldn't have done any better.

I just hate the way all the replays took the 2 seconds before the final contact away. That ball is in dispute because of a forward pass and Steward was going for the ball, he's second to it by a split second, and a reflex action saw him sent off.

He wasn't thinking about a tackle, he was thinking "get the ball" so he's not in a position to make a "legal tackle"
Under the current thinking he was fucked no matter what he did because he was always going to be higher than Keenan and was always going to make contact with the head.

It's a nailed on red card in 2023. Doesn't mean i have to like the way these things are looked at.

[Steve]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@The-Irishman said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

So the contact from Steward created the knock on

So Keenan was in possession when he was hit by Steward

So Steward should have made a tackle

He didn’t, and in the process of turning away from the ball carrier his elbow made contact with the ball carrier’s head

Can’t see why anyone is aggrieved and/or unsure why he got a red

I think you guys are talking about different knock ons. One pre contact with Steward and one after.

Mack Hansen initially drops the ball forward like a drunk with a tray of pints. It’s not marginal . He has spilled forward at 11 o clock from his own body .

Keenan still tried to play it for some reason , you could argue he had over ran the pass if it was lateral or backwards , but Keenan finds himself playing it anyway. He clatters into Steward who is trying to evade, pull out or brace for the impending impact.

Keenan cops one in the Chevy Chase and then knocks the ball on for the second time in the play.

[The Irishman]

This post is deleted!

[MiketheSnow]

@Steve said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@The-Irishman said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

So the contact from Steward created the knock on

So Keenan was in possession when he was hit by Steward

So Steward should have made a tackle

He didn’t, and in the process of turning away from the ball carrier his elbow made contact with the ball carrier’s head

Can’t see why anyone is aggrieved and/or unsure why he got a red

I think you guys are talking about different knock ons. One pre contact with Steward and one after.

Mack Hansen initially drops the ball forward like a drunk with a tray of pints. It’s not marginal . He has spilled forward at 11 o clock from his own body .

Keenan still tried to play it for some reason , you could argue he had over ran the pass if it was lateral or backwards , but Keenan finds himself playing it anyway. He clatters into Steward who is trying to evade, pull out or brace for the impending impact.

Keenan cops one in the Chevy Chase and then knocks the ball on for the second time in the play.

Jaco didn’t signal a knock on nor a forward pass from Hansen, so the play is still live

Keenan gathers, is in possession, and then gets clattered and loses possession

That’s when Jaco indicated advantage England

[The Irishman]

I think you might be right there Mike after watching that a few times.

[Bones]

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

[MajorRage]

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

Sorry that was unclear from me, he's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down. When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish. Would this be the case if it was a yellow card or penalty only? In my view, no. And remember, this is when I think majority would agree Peyper probably applied the rules correctly.

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

[MajorRage]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

And he made the wrong decision, with clumsy execution which in today’s climate is a red card