All Blacks 2023
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I think it is more concerning many in nz rugby use this as a tactic, too often.
Even if executed better most often it is a low % play anyway, but the execution is often not there as well.
I
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@taniwharugby That includes the box kick up and under to exit your 22. I don't understand it because more often than not, you gift the opposition the ball in a prime attacking area and your defense is not set.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
Will Jordan has 21 tries in 21 games for NZ aged 25.
He missed the end of last year but at that scoring rate he was/is easily going to break Howletts record.
I suspect he is already pencilled in to the RWC squad and he has been treated with kid gloves by the Crusaders under instructions from the higher ups at HQ.
He is back this weekend.
Hungry.
Angry.
Rested.Air Jordan about to cut lines like Tony Montana.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
I know JB hasn't had as much time as we'd like at 12 at test level, but he's had plenty of experience in the position during his career. He was also a HELL of a lot better than "solid" - I'd say the exact opposite, he was absolutely dominant in his performances there, easily the most influential player on the park and the best we've seen from an AB 12 since the days of Nonu. I'm far less concerned about our midfield then I am our 10.
Don't take calling his performance "solid" as a bad thing, as that's a really big step up from before and a real positive - particularly as he'd had little experience at the top level at 12 before stepping in at Test level
I guess I'm less convinced than you that he's been absolutely dominant at 12 but with the time he's had at 12 in SR, he should get better and better.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Can you imagine if RM and DH did that in an AB test? Fozzie would get vilified.
That’s because he doesn’t know how to use the Saders players properly though. Nothing to do with them being shit.
George Bridge is clearly the future post-Foster, then.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack and that in part is due to our kick chase and contesting in the air not being great, this is where I think utilising the likes of Dagg & Jane in skills sessions would surely help, seems to be a gap in our skills for both attacking kicking game, and contesting/defusing kicks
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack and that in part is due to our kick chase and contesting in the air not being great, this is where I think utilising the likes of Dagg & Jane in skills sessions would surely help, seems to be a gap in our skills for both attacking kicking game, and contesting/defusing kicks
I would guess that bomb defusing is a big part of skills training for back three players at most levels. To me the problem lies more with the communication and/or gelling between the 10 and the chasers. Teams that do that part well get the advantage and the defending jumper on a well placed and signalled kick is at a disadvantage.
Note the kick we have been talking about. The chasers didn't know it was coming meaning no one had an advantage and it became 50/50.
CJ, Dagg, Ben Smith were great under high balls partly because of excellent game reading skills and anticipation (hard to coach), partly because other teams didn't have that connection part down well on attack. I remember the Saffas getting very good at knowing when and where the ball would be kicked and it made our usually good aerial players look not so good. -
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
Will Jordan has 21 tries in 21 games for NZ aged 25.
He missed the end of last year but at that scoring rate he was/is easily going to break Howletts record.
I suspect he is already pencilled in to the RWC squad and he has been treated with kid gloves by the Crusaders under instructions from the higher ups at HQ.
Maybe Jordan could move (finally) to 15?
That's the dream bro......We won't win it with Beauden Barrett doing cross kicks in his own 22.
Teams need to be afraid to kick it to us like the days of yore.
At the moment when they kick to us a territorial game of kick tennis ensues.
With Jordan there they might think "this mad kunt is gonna run it back from there with interest"
Look at the try against Wales or USA.
Having their fatties back tracking as a result of his line breaks will win us penalties too.
The boy is a scalpel.
Kick battles shouldn't be a hit and hope exercise though. Good kicking downfield can be used as a manipulative tool. It may appear like ping pong or handing the ball back but what you are trying to do is give the ball back in a compromising position. That could be from a chase that puts a kicker to their wrong foot. It could be with an expectation that they will kick back and you are setting up an opportunity for a run etc.
I don't think we have seen good tactical kicking from the back in the RM/BB era even if JB takes the clearance. I am worried that it isn't part of Jordan's game either.
I see it a little with Stevenson, I see it when DMac drops back and I see it from Zarn Sullivan. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I think it is more concerning many in nz rugby use this as a tactic, too often.
Even if executed better most often it is a low % play anyway, but the execution is often not there as well.
I
Not just NZ, club game on the weekend, had come back from 0-14 to be 19-21 with 5 to go....they were out of gas, just had to work out way back up field...and had three separate players try kick passes, grubbers or chip kicks....in our around or own 22!
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I am sure everyone who played this game on the Fern would have been told if you kick it is to retain possession or kick into space not to hand unless it is contestable.
These days it seems just random kicking, can’t handle pressure so kick it no matter where it ends up or can’t break the defence/ or clearing hoof it down field and hope it lands in a good place.
Most teams have kicking coaches and attack and defence coaches what are they instilling in the players when it comes to kicking.
Where are the Carters,Mehrtens Fox’s etc should they not be used in some capacity as tactical kicking coaches. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I think it is more concerning many in nz rugby use this as a tactic, too often.
Even if executed better most often it is a low % play anyway, but the execution is often not there as well.
I
Not just NZ, club game on the weekend, had come back from 0-14 to be 19-21 with 5 to go....they were out of gas, just had to work out way back up field...and had three separate players try kick passes, grubbers or chip kicks....in our around our own 22!
I have been flogging a dead horse on this topic for years. We need to find a solution for the fact that in the modern rugby structure we don't get young 10s learning their trade through clubs, pass down knowledge etc. Schools encourage use of size mismatch at that age over tactical nous and breaking down a team. 10s can still look good if their ball skills and/or running skills are high but their 'trade' knowledge is low and not ingrained as an instinct when playing at higher levels.
Good tactical kicking can be a long term plan in a game but 10s need to be told what to do and when to do it.
I equate 10 play in some games to bolwing in cricket. You aren't looking for success every ball but setting a trap. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
I have gone nuts since 2019 on the All Blacks doing the same thing again and again. That test loss in 2021 against SA stands out because F.Steyn came in late and ripped the ABs arsehole with some beautiful kicks that pinned us in our 22. Our response was more headless chook shit. It is all the way through the NZ game, it seems. Contrast that to the way, Ireland especially, use tactical kicking for territory gain, exiting the danger zones, etc.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack and when we have weapons like RI, Reece (when fit), clarke (looks like he should be able too), jordan etc....im not sure the 10 needs to be DC circa 2005...you need someone that can either get the ball wide quick to create space or you need to bag it into the corners and put pressure on
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack and when we have weapons like RI, Reece (when fit), clarke (looks like he should be able too), jordan etc....im not sure the 10 needs to be DC circa 2005...you need someone that can either get the ball wide quick to create space or you need to bag it into the corners and put pressure on
See what DMac did in the game last week to get the Chiefs into the Saders corner in the last few minutes.
Slow turnover ball to Chiefs but instead of a hasty hoof down field he came up from fullback and passed the ball wide to get it out into space where Narawa had time to chip long down the tram tracks. That alone nearly resulted in a great try but even without the offload being possible the pressure was put on down in the corner and eventually the match sealing try scored.
The commentators painted it as taking a risk off slow ball but the bigger risk would have been a kick from Gatland which would have left Narawa and DMac defending a big openside. I don't know if the play was Gatland's doing or DMac's call but I would think the latter. Just great decision making and reading the options. -
@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
Agree but you don't have to chase each time if kicking to a plan.
eg let's say that you have observed that the opposition D line usually includes one of the back three. If you kick to that vacant space, even though it is covered, you put a little doubt in that player's mind and moreso a desire to be back to support a counter. Do it a few times and wait until the player is triggered and the defence structure compromised. They go into a half position of indecision and are compromised as a defender. That;s when you target the spot with a cut out pass.
It looks like aimless kicking but isn't
Our problem is that we aren't good enough or consistent enough to pull that off, or like you say, don't have everyone on the same page. -
Smith
DMAC
Rieko ?? Not 13? Another wing?
Jordie
Aumua/Ioane
Stevenson/Narawa
Jordan/SullivanI'd be happy with that. Maybe Narawa or Sullivan off the bench.
5.5% chance of seeing the above at RWC though. -
@nostrildamus i think i could get excited about seeing something new, something coming off the back of good super build up
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus i think i could get excited about seeing something new, something coming off the back of good super build up
Speed, size and flair!
