All Blacks 2023
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@Dan54 were many calling for both Richie and DC to be left behind, particularly in the media, Rattue was leading the charge and plenty on talk back too.
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@Nepia Here's Hooroo and TR recalling the same back in 2017.
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/1318/aaron-cruden/23?page=2
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Poor old Beaudy - two time World Player of the Year playing first five...... living in the outhouse.
I think we're waaay harsh on our first fives.
If Handre Pollard was one of ours, we'd think he was complete rubbish.
Living in the outhouse now Chris.
This isn't 2016.Personally hope the criticism he has been getting lights a fire under him.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
but have to admit didn't know anyone wanting same for DC.
I think @Chris-B dreamt that or has projected his own personal opinion onto everyone else.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy
I'd have traded them for AC. The stupid Welsh being so poor in 2016 allowing BB to star fucked our 2019 campaign.
I remember plenty of comments along the lines of Carters best being behind him. His tournament performance caused some wilful amnesia
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Personal theory: Beauden plays his best rugby when he's just having FUN.
If he's got a smile on his face, like he's just playing a goddamn GAME... he'll do a chip kick, perfectly placed, collect it, score. Easy-peasy lemon-japanesey-squeezy.
If he's under pressure, being asked to play a certain way... like it's a fucking JOB or some bullshit... not so much.
In the modern game - international level, especially World-Cup... maybe that works(worked) if he's the fresh new kid. Aside: Fuck I loved the 2015 Final. Champagne at Twickenham... soooo much fucking champagne. Anyway.... maybe doesn't work so much when he has had years of coaching. -
Probably better getting the full set of them.
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Victor Meldrewreplied to Chris on 12 Apr 2023, 14:50 last edited by Victor Meldrew 12 Apr 2023, 16:19
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
100 % yes.
You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle.If it were that simple, you'd be right. But I'm not sure it is.
It's based on the assumption that NZ has, and will always have, a superior talent pool, all the world-class players they'll ever need for whatever game-plan is chosen, that only the coaching staff matter and winning or losing is down to them and their choice of game-plan and players alone.
In the real world, your talent pool is limited and other countries often have better resources, players and infrastructure. If you're good or lucky, the compromises you invariably have to make work out OK - most of the time.
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Victor Meldrewreplied to KiwiMurph on 12 Apr 2023, 14:52 last edited by Victor Meldrew 12 Apr 2023, 14:56
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot
Jordie's boot from the back is simply not accurate. For whatever reason it just isn't. He has a big boot but from fullback it's never been accurate.
He has a big boot, but as you say, I don't think he's an outstanding kicker. He was great at 15 in '21 but faded the following year.
But he's a good solid, reliable player - if not spectacular - which is why I'd want him in the starting XV.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 were many calling for both Richie and DC to be left behind, particularly in the media, Rattue was leading the charge and plenty on talk back too.
Yep well I was living in Aus , but never read Rattue anyway. I did remember a few forum piston wristed gibbons wanting Richie out, especially first half of Super rugby.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
100 % yes.
You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle.If it were that simple, you'd be right. But I'm not sure it is.
It's based on the assumption that NZ has, and will always have, a superior talent pool, all the world-class players they'll ever need for whatever game-plan is chosen, that only the coaching staff matter and winning or losing is down to them and their choice of game-plan and players alone.
In the real world, your talent pool is limited and other countries often have better resources, players and infrastructure. If you're good or lucky, the compromises you invariably have to make work out OK - most of the time.
thats not what i meant, i dont think that player B is as good as Player A in a straight up comparison, i mean that Player B might work better with the other players or the game plan that the coaches want to play, greater than the sum of their parts. so definitely not claiming we have an unlimited pool or world class players....we just might need to try using a couple of not quite world class....on paper
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
100 % yes.
You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle.If it were that simple, you'd be right. But I'm not sure it is.
It's based on the assumption that NZ has, and will always have, a superior talent pool, all the world-class players they'll ever need for whatever game-plan is chosen, that only the coaching staff matter and winning or losing is down to them and their choice of game-plan and players alone.
In the real world, your talent pool is limited and other countries often have better resources, players and infrastructure. If you're good or lucky, the compromises you invariably have to make work out OK - most of the time.
thats not what i meant, i dont think that player B is as good as Player A in a straight up comparison, i mean that Player B might work better with the other players or the game plan that the coaches want to play, greater than the sum of their parts. so definitely not claiming we have an unlimited pool or world class players....we just might need to try using a couple of not quite world class....on paper
That is right,I am sure as most coaches do they use Depth charts to understand what tier 2 /3 looks like wether they can sustain the game plan they want to play, and tweak the gameplay according to what the overall depth is.
In my Job we do it right down to u/16 level to identify player's coming though which fit how we play to be successful as we can for the next cycle of 4 or 5 years.I would think an advanced set up like the AB's are all over this and are doing it.
But maybe they are confused about the structure v the player depth to sustain their game plan. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Poor old Beaudy - two time World Player of the Year playing first five...... living in the outhouse.
I think we're waaay harsh on our first fives.
If Handre Pollard was one of ours, we'd think he was complete rubbish.
most recently in 2017...is he any better now that 6 years ago...is he even that good now?
Not really the point I'm making.
I'm pretty sure Danny Boy and Cruden aren't world class these days either.
Carter would probably still tackle distribute and kick the ball better than Richie or BB and his running might be a little braver than the latter...
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nostrildamusreplied to taniwharugby on 12 Apr 2023, 22:04 last edited by nostrildamus 12 Apr 2023, 22:04
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 were many calling for both Richie and DC to be left behind, particularly in the media, Rattue was leading the charge and plenty on talk back too.
yes but what about someone who likes rugby?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble We were relying on Danny in 2015, but most people would rather have had Cruden playing first five if he wasn't broken - especially as Dan (and Richie McCaw) phoned it in for yet another Super season under Toddy Blackadder.
Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy for the creaking Jonny Sexton who'd just had his arse handed to him in a hat in Japan?
We can win the RWC with our first fives - especially Richie. And if we can't, how come our other AB laden Super teams can't ever seem to stop him at the business end of Super rugby?
The Crusaders success at Super level is more centered around their pack controlling the match rather than their star 10 driving them around the field. Not to take too much away from Mo'unga, he's very effective at Super level, but his game just hasn't translated to test level at all thus far.
An example of this is he often stations himself wider looking for mismatches, which he invariably finds at Super level as all teams have journeymen that can be exploited. He's tried the same for the ABs and has just gone completely missing for multiple phases of play as those mismatches don't really exist at that level. As a result the ABs look clueless as nobody is driving the team around the park and we end up under the pump. It's a big reason why he can look a million bucks against the lesser teams like the Wallabies, but as soon as we are up against an organised defense, e.g. SA or Ireland, he's completely anonymous.
That's why I say he's not good enough, as I'm really not sure he has the skillset and mental attributes required to control a big test, especially a RWC knock-out match.
It's a real shame Beauden's form hasn't been good, as he's easily our best 10 as he commands the ball and tries to direct play, and is not afraid to take the line on against the tougher defenses. If he can recapture his form from a few years ago then we'd be in a much better place. I'm really hoping DMac can play that role, but the jury is out on that against the best teams.
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Yeah, I get that. My response was to @Chris 's apparent view that any AB coach should be able to sit down, devise a winning game-plan and then pick the players for it.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Yeah, I get that. My response was to @Chris 's apparent view that any AB coach should be able to sit down, devise a winning game-plan and then pick the players for it.
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
The alternative is to select the wrong players for a winning game plan,or the wrong game plan for the right players.The coach is employed to win and develop to keep winning.
I do not get paid as a coach to do anything but win championships and to develop the 2nd tier 3rd tier players and youth players to keep winning.
That is my contract directive,I am sure the AB coaches have objectives to hit to stay employed.History tells us winning coaches are in demand losing coaches not so much.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble We were relying on Danny in 2015, but most people would rather have had Cruden playing first five if he wasn't broken - especially as Dan (and Richie McCaw) phoned it in for yet another Super season under Toddy Blackadder.
Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy for the creaking Jonny Sexton who'd just had his arse handed to him in a hat in Japan?
We can win the RWC with our first fives - especially Richie. And if we can't, how come our other AB laden Super teams can't ever seem to stop him at the business end of Super rugby?
The Crusaders success at Super level is more centered around their pack controlling the match rather than their star 10 driving them around the field. Not to take too much away from Mo'unga, he's very effective at Super level, but his game just hasn't translated to test level at all thus far.
An example of this is he often stations himself wider looking for mismatches, which he invariably finds at Super level as all teams have journeymen that can be exploited. He's tried the same for the ABs and has just gone completely missing for multiple phases of play as those mismatches don't really exist at that level. As a result the ABs look clueless as nobody is driving the team around the park and we end up under the pump. It's a big reason why he can look a million bucks against the lesser teams like the Wallabies, but as soon as we are up against an organised defense, e.g. SA or Ireland, he's completely anonymous.
That's why I say he's not good enough, as I'm really not sure he has the skillset and mental attributes required to control a big test, especially a RWC knock-out match.
It's a real shame Beauden's form hasn't been good, as he's easily our best 10 as he commands the ball and tries to direct play, and is not afraid to take the line on against the tougher defenses. If he can recapture his form from a few years ago then we'd be in a much better place. I'm really hoping DMac can play that role, but the jury is out on that against the best teams.
There's a lot of egg in that mix, NQ!!!
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right - but, it's hard to compare across positions, so I'll stick with with "the best and most influential 10". He's got a significantly better winning record than Danny in Super rugby - he's never lost a play-off game. Similar with Canterbury in the NPC - he might have lost once to the Mako.
It's not forward dominant - it's Richie-dominant. Whenever he's been missing and we've played the likes of Mitch Hunt, Dave Havili and Fergus Burke at first five - and I reckon we've barely won 50% of those games. With Richie at the helm we win 85% of the time and the losses to date have never been in the big knock-out games.
Watch Razor talking about "his franchise quarterback", "...his Steph Curry". It is quite a shame we're unlikely to see them paired for the ABs.
So, that's what I have to say in response to Richie's Super rugby record. He's got a winner's mentality, so I'm not sure why you would question that when his competition have repeatedly failed at that level. (Yeah, I know that comment isn't going to be popular).
Moving to test rugby, well, you're setting me up for an "I told you so" when we don't win the RWC later this year and the odds are a bit against us.
But, Beaudy got pretty comprehensively toppled from his perch as first choice 1st five in the middle of last season and DMac's had two starts ever at 10 for the ABs. Barring a catastrophe, Richie is going to be our starting first five at RWC 2023 - this is obvious even to Blind Freddie.
It's also a good thing.
There was a thread a while ago about the most important player at RWC 2023 - and for most teams, people were picking the first five - Sexton, Ntamack, etc - but, for NZ I don't think anyone did.
In your dreams!!!
Our most important player will be our first five - and it will be Richie.
And he can win it for us - admittedly channeling a bit more Carlos than Danny-Boy.
You've noted that he is completely anonymous against Ireland and SA.
Well, here's some stats to ponder.
Against Ireland, the only game Richie has started is the RWC quarter final when we thumped them 46-15. He's played off the bench five other times (with Beaudy starting) for one win and four losses.
Against the Jaapies he's started 3 games for two wins and a draw. Off the bench, he's one win and two losses.
It's small samples, but it suggest to me that he's someone you start and let command the game, not someone to pull the fat out of the fire in the last 20 minutes.
Richie's only lost five times starting, in an era of somewhat inept coaching and a slightly substandard team.
Go Richie!!!
- The journo is Reason, but his discussion will help you feel better when we're starting Richie at RWC2023.
** Fuck you all and especially anyone who refuses to read the Reason article !!!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
Hard to explain to some one who is not involved in the coaching world and makes a living out of it.
But I will leave it there as it something coaches understand -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
A new AB coach who had been an assistant AB coach before, should have some idea?
Oh, Ian Foster. -
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
A new AB coach who had been an assistant AB coach before, should have some idea?
Oh, Ian Foster.Wrong thread.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's a great post, a minority viewpoint but buttressed by point-by-point facts, and then out of nowhere springs gratuitous, comic abuse.
You are now the gold standard in TSF rugby-related posts as far as I'm concerned. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
A new AB coach who had been an assistant AB coach before, should have some idea?
Oh, Ian Foster.Wrong thread.
This thread title says "All Blacks 2023" not "All Blacks 2024". Somehow, despite his apparent faults, I think the AB 2023 head coach is related.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's a great post, a minority viewpoint but buttressed by point-by-point facts, and then out of nowhere springs gratuitous, comic abuse.
You are now the gold standard in TSF rugby-related posts as far as I'm concerned.No-one's wanted the gold standard since the 1930s.
It's the gratuitous abuse that sets the standard!
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
And? He still can control a game at test level, Richie can't. He can break a game open, but not control. Not when his team is struggling. I'm not saying the other tens always do that. But that they have, Richie never has. And under Fosters embarrassing reign he's had a lot of opportunities to grip a test. He never has. Neither has BB, so we've not much choice but both are flash harries, not DC style controllers - a requirement for winning the big games
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If Richie could defend like this I would be alot happier
What's Richie good at? And why is he one of the best Super players I've watched? Because he shreds fragmented defenses, especially 2 passes wide and on the counter.
If we want to get the best of him therefore we need a 12 that terrifies defenses
And a pack full of big munter ball runners. To get teams on the back footSo what do we pick?
Savea who is best wider.
Cane who can't run the ball
Barrett or fucking Frizzell
Whitelock and Retallick.What Richie isn't good at is keeping the ball in front of his forwards. Terrorising inside channels. Field kicking. Being confronted by organised defenses constantly coming forward.
We pick teams that seem to lead to this situation and then hope we can go around them -
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
And? He still can control a game at test level, Richie can't. He can break a game open, but not control. Not when his team is struggling. I'm not saying the other tens always do that. But that they have, Richie never has. And under Fosters embarrassing reign he's had a lot of opportunities to grip a test. He never has. Neither has BB, so we've not much choice but both are flash harries, not DC style controllers - a requirement for winning the big games
You didn't look at his record before reporting back, did you?
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@mariner4life To be fair to Richie, who I actually think should/will be our 10 at WC, I think there is a simpler thing he needs than changing all the players around him to be at his best, he just needs Super rugby level defence!!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
100 % agree with you you can see it mapped out.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
Last RWC it was a massive coaching mistake to think they could hide him on defence. It provided a target for others to exploit. I think his defence has improved since then but there will still be patterns in his play and decision making that good coaches will be building plans around.
He's not entirely a front foot player but (like BB) his positive abilities are just about all when on the front foot.
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