All Blacks 2023
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@SBW1 Not sure why you've tagged me since I don't think I've commented on Roigard.
A wise choice though - @Nepia knows I've been the expert halfback analyst since the days of Andy Ellis!
I like the look of him though - promising allrounder. He's got good size and might be able to add a few kgs and play that 4th loose forward type halfback role as well as having decent distribution and running.
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@Dan54 Roger that. If a winger was gunshy on taking the high ball though, I don't want them anywhere near the ABs. You know what is coming in France and we need a "bomb-squad version 2" out there. I think Jordan commits himself to take the high ball without hesitation (from what I have seen) but the ABs seem to take a "hope for the best" approach. This makes all the high ball takers in the ABs look incompetent. J. Barrett, Jordan, Clarke, etc.
Here is my argument., and I have mentioned it before. Watch SA, Ireland, France etc, and the jumper is usually not committed to catching, just disrupting. A fingertip will do. The non-jumpers will put themselves in positions to take advantage of any messy ball, scoop it up, and get the ball back. In contrast, the AB patterns under the high ball have been just a mess in the Foster era. When the ball is disrupted by the opposition (most of the time these days) nobody is positioned to clean it up. -
@Old-Samurai-Jack We clearly changed - or at least Will did - our tactics after that first SA test, where the SA jumpers got in our faces and caused a lot of drops.
In subsequent tests, Will stopped trying as much to catch offensive high balls and concentrated on getting a hand up to disrupt.
He got criticized for that as well!
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
The least Smiley Barrett could have done would be to have twins. Gordy Barrett has a nice ring to it.
I mean, he’s contributed to the All Black legacy but let’s be honest, he could have done more.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
What's your reasoning?
To me Jordie is far more suited to 12 + we have more depth at fullback than 12.
While Jordie is great under the high ball to me he wasn't quick enough to make his own breaks at fullback and wasn't a fullback that set up other players in attack. To me his size and direct game is more effective and a better decision maker in the confined spaces of midfield and closer to the ruck
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Jordie at fullback is a defensive move, I see the merit, but I don't see us beating the top sides with a defensive mindset. We're gonna need to throw caution to the wind at this RWC, so players like Jordan are going to be critical to our chances.
@Chris-B was that the game Bridge had a shocker under the high ball? If so I agree with your assessment, I think the plan was for Bridge and Jordie to field the kicks and set Jordan loose from the back to counter that tactic. I think I remember them talking about selecting Bridge for that exact reason, but then Bridge dropped one early and lost all confidence, so Jordie was charging around trying to catch everything.
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@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
Pick a Tasmanian, any Tasmanian.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
Pick a Tasmanian, any Tasmanian.
That name is taken across the ditch. Try out Tasmanlander.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Carlos also wants Barrett and DMac in the 23, the latter starting at fullback.
And there every chance they will be, as Carlos says they will need some experience when things get tight. See I'm one that doesn't see Jordan as an option at 15, mainly because the last test I saw him play, (on wing I know) he had no interest in taking high balls, and that worries the f* out of me at test level**. But almost guarantee that RMo, DMac and BB will go to WC, in whatever position or whatever I not sure though at this satge of season I think RMo is starting 10, and I say that thinking that from what I have seen we will not be running a 10 who will be in top 2-3 in world.
What are you talking about? Avoiding high balls? BS! He could have been more accurate in some instances for sure but avoiding high balls? Nope.
Mate I only saying the last time I saw him in a test match, was at Wellington against Ireland, and he looked to have no interest at all, he scored one great try, but almost seemed not interested for the other 79.5 minutes of game. I actually wondered if he was injured,, I a Jordan fan, but had to agree with fella behind me who noticed it too. I must admit I haven't rewatched game on tv to see if anything stood out there, but at game I was buggered if I know what seemed to be wrong. As I said I like the bugger as a player, but think he more suited to wing. I also think we forget how highly all the coaches and players seem to regard players in 15 who can call the shots and let 10 know whats they see in gaps etc.
Do you remember when we played South Africa in 2022 and we dropped a whole heap of defensive high balls?
I told y'all I didn't think Jordan dropped any - except very early he caught one, took two steps and lost the ball in contact. You told me I hadn't watched the game closely enough.
I went back and re-watched - and got interrupted so missed 10minutes or so, but what was evident was Jordie was catching (or dropping) almost everything on the right hand side.
Will was leaving them to Jordie.
Since I haven't noticed Will struggling under the high ball for the Crusaders, I'm inclined to think this is tactical - to have probably our best broken field runner available to receive the pass infield rather than making the pass infield.
Mate read what I said, I said last test I was at and saw him play. Also I a Jordan fan, though do prefer him at 14, not knocking his ability, just the day where he looked completely uninterested, and could of been off colour or anything.
I can't comment on him for All Blacks 2023 as I haven't seen him play this year. -
@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
Fair enough mate, I see what you saying. And I have never really read ESPN stats to be honest,. As I said it was something that stuck out in that game, and I still wonder if he was crook or something, his whole body language just looked like he was not interested, or really trying. Will repeat I a fan of him , but still thing 14 is his best position.. Just my opinion, of his play,
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@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
the last couple of pages just fucking rams home what i hate about current thinking in NZ rugby.
Is he a wing or a fullback? Is he a 10 or a fullback? is he a fullback or a 12? is he a wing or a centre?
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@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
It comes down to tactics though doesn't it? If you want a big clearing boot at the back to clean up then Stevenson and Jordie offer the most in that regard.
Do you want the fullback to run it back? (DMac, BB, Jordan)
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing? (JB, Stevenson)
The aspect of 15 play that we aren't talking about is the fullback joining the line from midfield out. BB, DMac (and to an extent JB) will often join in as a second playmaker option but i still like the basics of a fullback with acceleration and vision to steam in from behind the play on a line to a weak spot. That one is probably Jordan and possibly DMac. Stevenson tends to join wide but that could be adjusted.
Bring back Cully. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
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@mariner4life Four opensides and four fullbacks.
