All Blacks 2023
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby
4 years to find those back ups we should be better covered than we are now.I'm not arguing with that 🤣. I agree!
But it also doesn't change the fact that he was unlucky to get injuries in the two least covered positions... but as a smart person once said, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, **I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position**... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
im really struggling with what your trying to say sorry mate, youve just said my (and others) opinion is a little stupid....and then largely agreed
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
I think we agree on 99% of the argument. Where we are differing, is that I give Foster a small benefit of the doubt, by saying there is an element of bad luck to lose the players in positions where we have the least coverage on the injury front... so in terms of a one off game, I don't really criticise Fozzy for the loss to France, but I think the failure to find backups is a major F up, and is one that will likely cost us in the finish.
To me it least, it seems like Foster's thoughts were the same as mine, as an armchair pundit - we're fucked if lose x, y or z... but from the All Black coach, it is laughable.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, **I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position**... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
im really struggling with what your trying to say sorry mate, youve just said my (and others) opinion is a little stupid....and then largely agreed
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
I think we agree on 99% of the argument. Where we are differing, is that I give Foster a small benefit of the doubt, by saying there is an element of bad luck to lose the players in positions where we have the least coverage on the injury front... so in terms of a one off game, I don't really criticise Fozzy for the loss to France, but I think the failure to find backups is a major F up, and is one that will likely cost us in the finish.
and thats where we might just have to leave it because i dont think people should be given a pass on the consequences of their failures, injuries hurt us....but injuries are to be predicted and he's the one thats supposed to plan
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
Lomax. Is he that good or is he just good compared to others ? ( without Red Beard and Bart around I’m fucked if I know )
Retallick. Was a legend…..not quite the player he was.
Frizell. Getting pumped up on the back of one superb game. How many of those has he, or can he, string together ?
Cane. Was very good……not quite the player he was.
J Barrett. Has done a fine job at 12 but is he genuinely world class ? ( actually compared to his back ups he is )
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, **I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position**... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
im really struggling with what your trying to say sorry mate, youve just said my (and others) opinion is a little stupid....and then largely agreed
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
I think we agree on 99% of the argument. Where we are differing, is that I give Foster a small benefit of the doubt, by saying there is an element of bad luck to lose the players in positions where we have the least coverage on the injury front... so in terms of a one off game, I don't really criticise Fozzy for the loss to France, but I think the failure to find backups is a major F up, and is one that will likely cost us in the finish.
and thats where we might just have to leave it because i dont think people should be given a pass on the consequences of their failures, injuries hurt us....but injuries are to be predicted and he's the one thats supposed to plan
And I think that is totally fair. Fingers crossed Razor learns from the mistakes Hansen made in 2019, and Foster has now made in 2023.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
Lomax. Is he that good or is he just good compared to others ?
Retallick. Was a legend…..not quite the player he was.
Frizell. Getting pumped up on the back of one superb game. How many of those has he, or can he, string together ?
Cane. Was very good……not quite the player he was.
J Barrett. Has done a fine job at 12 but is he genuinely world class ? ( actually compared to his back ups he is )
I don't necessarily think losing Retallick or Lomax is a big deal, but it is another number in the tally. The issue with losing Frizell and Barrett, is that there is quite literally no backup option who can offer what they have offered. And then whatever we think of Sam Cane, he is the captain at the end of the day, and losing the captain is a big deal... but as has been discussed, it is Foster's fault for not at least planning for this.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
Hard to say, his attack is a bit more “predictable” than that of Telea’s.
…..and of the others mentioned I think you’re putting some of them on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on.
Who exactly are you referring to here?
Lomax. Is he that good or is he just good compared to others ?
Retallick. Was a legend…..not quite the player he was.
Frizell. Getting pumped up on the back of one superb game. How many of those has he, or can he, string together ?
Cane. Was very good……not quite the player he was.
J Barrett. Has done a fine job at 12 but is he genuinely world class ? ( actually compared to his back ups he is )
I don't necessarily think losing Retallick or Lomax is a big deal, but it is another number in the tally. The issue with losing Frizell and Barrett, is that there is quite literally no backup option who can offer what they have offered. And then whatever we think of Sam Cane, he is the captain at the end of the day, and losing the captain is a big deal... but as has been discussed, it is Foster's fault for not at least planning for this.
Yeah I agree with this to be fair.
But with Frizells issues and their complete unwillingness to play Jacobsen perhaps it was a mistake not to take fern golden child/whipping boy ( depending on which ferner you choose to believe ) Akira Ioane to France.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
The issue with losing Frizell and Barrett, is that there is quite literally no backup option who can offer what they have offered
They selected Finau in large part because he is like-for-like with Frizell (they are on record with this). He then shows real promise in his test debut. He then misses the RWC squad and instead they pick 5 wingers. Make it make sense!
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@frugby Losing Lomax is a big deal - he's clearly our best tighthead prop in that he can hold his own in the scrums AND offer something around the field.
Our replacements are a step down in most positions - but, that's been true for a lot of AB RWC squads - 2007 and 2015 probably exceptions.
Unfortunately, you sometimes can't wave a magic wand to create the players you need.
I'm a bit concerned about who Razor is going to magic up as locks next year.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Unfortunately, you sometimes can't wave a magic wand to create the players you need.
No, but if you've been part of the AB coaching set-up for a decade, then you are probably in the best position any international coach has ever been in to have had succession/injury planning for each position in place.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby but BB is kicking poorly (the worldy on the weekend being the exception)
for me its straight forward, to get the ball to our weapons at 11,13,14 it needs to go through a second Boss which is normally the 15, 9 > 10 > 12 > 13 > 11/14 just doesnt work against the rush defence....but when we go through BB either of 9 or 10....he kicks it. I would like to see the 15 actually inject himself and either draw a defender before unleashing other....or if he times it right breaking the line
I feel Jordan is more likely to do that than BB
The fact of the matter is his form at Super level has also fallen off a cliff.
Some peoples contention is that Beaudy is only copping flak because of Fozzies poor game plan.But his super rugby highlight reel only consists of stuff in a Hurricanes shirt.
He has done the square root of fuck all for The Blues and has been so uncommanding at both 10 and 15 that he has essentially been job sharing with Stephen Perofeta from week to week.
He is a shot fighter.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
The to and fro of the directions of argument in your emails are making my head spin.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.Twickenham and the France game seem to be getting hand waved away by some folks as a “warm up” and an “inconsequential” pool game.
But we aren’t just losing. We are getting shellacked.
The gap has closed between the top 8 nations, granted, but in my lifetime the Allblacks rarely lost two games in a row and if we did we were not towelled up on the score board like the current fashion.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
But we aren’t just losing. We are getting shellacked.
Yes but we are learning a lot about dry flake powder.
"It's all about the learnings" and I am most surprised that isn't a logo on the current AB jersey. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Unfortunately, you sometimes can't wave a magic wand to create the players you need.
No, but if you've been part of the AB coaching set-up for a decade, then you are probably in the best position any international coach has ever been in to have had succession/injury planning for each position in place.
On the other hand - if you look at our 2019 squad, Hansen had been there for 15 years and had probably our best ever team in 2015, but he came up with this....
https://www.allblacks.com/news/all-blacks-squad-named-for-rugby-world-cup-2019/
A fair bit of ordinary.
Aside from the five wings foolishness, I think they've probably picked the best we have.
But, it will be interesting to see what Razor makes of our resources next year. It's quite possible he will make Fozzie look like Toddy Blackadder.
On the other hand - Fozzie isn't dead yet!
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For all his potential Cantab bias I doubt Razor would pick an injured George Bridge as his impact winger.
