All Blacks 2023
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At the end of the day, the Super sides have better balanced loosie trios than the ABs.
We'd likely be better off with any of the below:
Finau (6), Cane (7), Jacobson (8)
Lio WIllie (6), Blackadder (7), Grace (8)
Ioane (6), Papalii (7), Sotutu (8)
Frizell (6), Harmon (7), MMT (8)
Flanders (6), Savea (7), Iose (8)With Cane and Savea both playing, we are basically fucked. Given that Cane is the captain, the only way to really achieve balance is if they picked Savea off the bench, or Frizell plays every game like he did in the opening against SA.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
You can argue that it was going to be a gamble playing Papalii at 6 too. It would have been interesting to see how that went, but we'll never know now. Foster and Ryan had 24 h to decide who would replace Cane, so I am assuming they discussed all options.
What confuses me, is if they really felt Papalii/Vaa'i are better options at 6 then Jacobson, why not give them a run there in the starting side v the Boks... and then the reverse argument, what was it they saw in 35 minutes from Jacobson, made them think he was really that poor an option.
The selections with Jacobson have been odd, it's like they don't rate him, yet chose to pick him, despite having more faith in the likes of Akira Ioane. Not sure if they are trying to send a message or what, but it is all very odd for me. Jacobson isn't an eye-catching player, but he is a tough bastard who will do the hard yards. I don't know what evidence they saw that Vaa'i was their man to run 6.
I reckon Jacobson was picked because he can play all loosie positions etc.
Maybe not enough to start, I strongly suspect if BBBR was properly fit on weekend, Scooter would of been 6 and BBBR and Sam W the locks.
Mind you I just guessing how I think Ryan would of been thinking. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
You can argue that it was going to be a gamble playing Papalii at 6 too. It would have been interesting to see how that went, but we'll never know now. Foster and Ryan had 24 h to decide who would replace Cane, so I am assuming they discussed all options.
What confuses me, is if they really felt Papalii/Vaa'i are better options at 6 then Jacobson, why not give them a run there in the starting side v the Boks... and then the reverse argument, what was it they saw in 35 minutes from Jacobson, made them think he was really that poor an option.
The selections with Jacobson have been odd, it's like they don't rate him, yet chose to pick him, despite having more faith in the likes of Akira Ioane. Not sure if they are trying to send a message or what, but it is all very odd for me. Jacobson isn't an eye-catching player, but he is a tough bastard who will do the hard yards. I don't know what evidence they saw that Vaa'i was their man to run 6.
im guessing and I might be wrong , Blackadder was the player they( Ryan) wanted , and he would have been selected ahead of Jacobsen if he was available .
Just a Hunch .
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2023:
im guessing and I might be wrong , Blackadder was the player they( Ryan) wanted , and he would have been selected ahead of Jacobsen if he was available .
Just a Hunch .
I think this is correct.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
It’s not cricket season yet
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
You can argue that it was going to be a gamble playing Papalii at 6 too. It would have been interesting to see how that went, but we'll never know now. Foster and Ryan had 24 h to decide who would replace Cane, so I am assuming they discussed all options.
What confuses me, is if they really felt Papalii/Vaa'i are better options at 6 then Jacobson, why not give them a run there in the starting side v the Boks... and then the reverse argument, what was it they saw in 35 minutes from Jacobson, made them think he was really that poor an option.
The selections with Jacobson have been odd, it's like they don't rate him, yet chose to pick him, despite having more faith in the likes of Akira Ioane. Not sure if they are trying to send a message or what, but it is all very odd for me. Jacobson isn't an eye-catching player, but he is a tough bastard who will do the hard yards. I don't know what evidence they saw that Vaa'i was their man to run 6.
im guessing and I might be wrong , Blackadder was the player they( Ryan) wanted , and he would have been selected ahead of Jacobsen if he was available .
Just a Hunch .
I think blind freddy could see than Shannon and Blackadder have always been their favourites.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2023:
Flanders (6), Savea (7), Iose (8)
Except that's not the Canes trio, Savea is an 8. I think he played once at 7 this year for the Canes, in the losing semi final.
It was the trio they ran out for their last game of the season, and I didn't say it was the (always) starting trios either - or MMT wouldn't be there either. The point is that the Super sides can achieve better balance than the ABs.
I'm 100% convinced that Savea is not an International 8. He's an excellent player, in the same way that Beauden Barrett is (was) an excellent footballer, but Barrett is not an international 10 and Savea is not an international 8.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
You can argue that it was going to be a gamble playing Papalii at 6 too. It would have been interesting to see how that went, but we'll never know now. Foster and Ryan had 24 h to decide who would replace Cane, so I am assuming they discussed all options.
What confuses me, is if they really felt Papalii/Vaa'i are better options at 6 then Jacobson, why not give them a run there in the starting side v the Boks... and then the reverse argument, what was it they saw in 35 minutes from Jacobson, made them think he was really that poor an option.
The selections with Jacobson have been odd, it's like they don't rate him, yet chose to pick him, despite having more faith in the likes of Akira Ioane. Not sure if they are trying to send a message or what, but it is all very odd for me. Jacobson isn't an eye-catching player, but he is a tough bastard who will do the hard yards. I don't know what evidence they saw that Vaa'i was their man to run 6.
It was obviously very poor selecting to pick five wings and five loose forwards, when they knew Retallick was injured. Everyone said it at the time and everyone has been proven correct now that Blackadder has replaced Narawa. However, now we've pretty much got the team they should have picked in the first place (they could have picked Finau) - and Ethan has had some NPC games.
I think they picked Vaa'i to give themselves three specialist lineout jumpers. The Jaapies took our lineout apart towards the end of our warm up when we only had two rookie specialist jumpers, and that's why we need either Frizell or SBarrett at 6. I presume they want SBarrett's power in the scrums, so they put Vaa'i at 6 and hoped.
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
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Our inability to put any heat on the French lineout was as big a contributing factor to the territory stat as the kicking. Add in ours was a bit ropey, and in a game dominated by kicking you're in trouble.
If we can't get the ball back from our kicks, or we can't attack the opposition lineout, then we are going to play a fuck load of football at our own end
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
It’s not cricket season yet
No one likes a pidant mate
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
It's well documented that JB only got a chance because the others were hurt. Foster spent a ridiculous amount of time persisting with players who aren't good enough at the expense of finding some that are good enough
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@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
I concur mate. It's been a shit show
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@mariner4life given most rugby we watch at present, lineouts are the more frequent set peice restart than scrums, having a functioning lineout becomes more crucial, particularly one that can pressure the opposition lineout.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
I think them not starting Jacobson is really telling. They should have either (1) played Vaii at lock and Barrett at 6, or (2) Jacobson at 6. It can't be good for moral to be benched after only getting 30 odd minuted against SA when he wasn't the issue.
