ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
How do we know they never tried? As Nepia days, IIRC the saffas were always in the news making noises about leaving
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@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
How do we know they never tried?
we don't know, but they certainly didn't come out and say 'we're gutted they're leaving'. So I'd infer they didn't seem to put much effort in.
Also, given the sheer incompetence of NZR governance around that time I wouldn't be surprised by anything any more
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Windows97 I am just trying to paint the Springboks picture. Sorry if it upset you.
Didn't upset me in the slightest, I genuinely think it's an interesting point and can see the logic behind it.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
Very succinct mate 👍
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
I don't think they're losing a second of sleep
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@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
Could NZR look at a partnership for potential funding and NZ player pathways to prop up a 4th Welsh side?
We could provide players and coaching and reciprocal opportunities for some Welsh players?
It would allow us to have players experience European rugby and vice versa for Welsh players.
would there be too much opposition in Wales to this or do the Welsh clubs lose too much money for this to be a starter for NZR?
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@DaGrubster Didn't the NZRU look at something like this years back with Saracens? I think the South Africans took the initiative with Saracens (bankrolled by Johann Rupert)
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
Could NZR look at a partnership for potential funding and NZ player pathways to prop up a 4th Welsh side?
We could provide players and coaching and reciprocal opportunities for some Welsh players?
It would allow us to have players experience European rugby and vice versa for Welsh players.
would there be too much opposition in Wales to this or do the Welsh clubs lose too much money for this to be a starter for NZR?
Don't think either of us have the money for it
And it doesn't suit either of our narratives - homegrown talent playing at home
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@nostrildamus said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
If Brown could have been an assistant AB coach and no one bothered to contact him, I'm going to be a little upset
Maybe they have to change the way the appoint the coaches. They should appoint the head coach then advertise for the assistants with the head coach one of 3 on the recruitment panel, So the head coach has some input but is not the sole recruiter, kind of like what most businesses do. In terms of chain of command the head coach is their direct superior and supervisor but assistant coaches are ultimately answerable to the chief executive. Or alternatively the appoint a High performance manager who is in charge of the coaching to be the ultimate authority.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
The longer NZ wait to select overseas players, the further they will stay behind the Springboks.
The best Springboks play in Japan. The lighter responsibility and physical demand on their bodies give them a longer playing lifespan.
According to Damian de Ellende.
I think alot is being made of 'the way SA do things' when in reality they are enjoying so much current success because they have stumbled very fortuitously on a brilliant coach/manager (for their mentality, not sure he would be so successful anywhere else) in Rassie Erasmus.
Wait until Rassie moves along and we see 'the SA way of doing things' being equally successful under a new regime cause it was not before Rassie.
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@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
The Woeful Rob Penney coached Crusaders minus their test players only narrowly lost to Munster in Limerick 21-19 at the start of this season. The Welsh sides are currently trying to leave the URC to join the English Premiership. People need to stop over inflating the quality of the URC it is not superior to Super Rugby.
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Can't we just let Super Rugby Pacific develop with a few minor tweaks for a while before people want to drastically change it up again?. The NZ and Australia's economies are nowhere recovered from the financial misery inflicted on us by the Covid response. Why do people expect a developing new competition to grow and succeed spectacularly in that background? They have tweaked it for next year with a dedicated Chief Executive, reduced the number of Aussie teams and have changed the finals draw, can't we just give it a chance and see how it develops rather than panickily proclaiming everyone else is doing everything better than us and we need major change to copy them NOW.
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@booboo said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
no surprise that 2015 SF were all SANZAAR unions.
By about 25% given only three of the four 2023 SF teams were from SANZAAR, and a whole one from from Europe.
yes, but against the odds. Whereas 2015 I think it followed form.
Still, SH has been dominant for a long time ... but I fear we're killing what separates us.
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@nzzp like football the money is in the northern hemisphere, NZR need to get up with professionalism and simply accept that players will go where the money is & just pick them from anywhere -. South Africa did this in 2019 and subsequently went from 7th on the rankings to consecutive WC winners in 2019 and 2023...
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@darylmitchell said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp like football the money is in the northern hemisphere, NZR need to get up with professionalism and simply accept that players will go where the money is & just pick them from anywhere -. South Africa did this in 2019 and subsequently went from 7th on the rankings to consecutive WC winners in 2019 and 2023...
Don't think it's an easy cause and effect as you're proposing
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@tubbyj said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
The Woeful Rob Penney coached Crusaders minus their test players only narrowly lost to Munster in Limerick 21-19 at the start of this season. The Welsh sides are currently trying to leave the URC to join the English Premiership. People need to stop over inflating the quality of the URC it is not superior to Super Rugby.
It’s hard to judge the quality of it. Especially for me as I don’t watch it!
But 2 irish sides would be very good. Glasgow won it last season and a couple of the saffa sides would be good as well (bulls and probably stormers.)
Outside of that, the quality won’t be that great.
