Thoughts on Cane now?
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus yeah I'm not convinced he hits harder.
They should have given the captaincy to DP too when Cane was ruled out, but maybe didn't want to overburden him.
Stick with Sam W if Sam C loses out to Paps. Safe, sensible solution.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
But I think Cane offers things that Paps doesn't (and vice-versa) and they are pretty much neck and neck for me.
I don't think he does anymore, I'm struggling to think of anything?
I thought he regularly topped the tackle count, arriving at rucks stats in many games? Remember someone going thru the stats after Ellis Park and Cane's performance was pretty much at the top.
Yeah without looking at the stats, I don't think those are things Cane offers that DP doesn't.
Not saying he should be nailed on as captain, but he's anything but a passenger.
That certainly wasn't something I said.
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That certainly wasn't something I said.
For sure. I just think a fit Cane is a bit different, but as a good as Paps. I think the number of injuries night be an issue though and he ain't getting any younger.
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@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@mariner4life said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
i fully expect Cane to start when he is fit. Because AB coaches and selectors are super conservative, and have been for a long time (far longer than Foster). Incumbency trumps everything, and players are seemingly always brought back. It also takes a huge amount for core guys to not get picked.
On one hand, this attitude has its merits. But i feel the drawback is, to be a core guy in the ABs you are going to be a pretty fucking good player, and this means you are unlikely to send in a run of absolute stinkers that force the hand. Rather there will a micro-drop off that allows you to maintain your spot, even if another guy could take us up a level.
It's the same reason i think Moody will start the first test next year despite me having to really think hard to remember he even exists.
Funnily enough, WC years tend to bring the coaches to the point where they need to make the hard decision.
I think Moody became number one in 2015 (after not even being picked in the original squad) and Izzy Dagg overtook Mils (also at the tournament). So, we can have some big changes, but it will be interesting to see who gets the opportunities.
Excuse the pedanticism but you're conflating two tournaments there.
Mils scraped to his 200th and last in 2011 after Dagg hit the town with CJ (and got injured).
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@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
I like Cane, I think he's a solid leader that the AB's have invested alot in. He's been brought through the grades and groomed for captaincy. He's a solid player, gives an honest effort everytime he plays.
The question is whether is he's the best 7 now in NZ? Given Dalton Papali'i form over the EOYT I would say not. If he can't command a starting place in the team then he shouldn't be captain. Harsh but the realities of professional sport. Absolutely he should be in the squad but he'll need to focus on winning his spot first.
Pretty much sums it up for me.
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@Duluth said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
People keep saying these great AB games by Akira I don’t remember that happening.
Drifting in and out of games but not 80mins of
quality.Eh? I didn't say great. But is your standard 80 minutes? Wow. Even Ardie can usually only manage 55.
Akira has been lauded with "MOTM" test comments from the press. I don't recall that with Blackadder.
Akira Ioane goes BEAST MODE vs Australia
Akira Ioane put on a man of the match performance in the All Blacks 38-21 victory over the Wallabies in Perth.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300170383/all-blacks-v-argentina-akira-ioane-grabs-chance-against-pumas--but-what-next
OR: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-all-blacks-number-6-jersey-is-akira-ioanes-for-as-long-as-he-wants-it/I don't take notice of the press all click bait.
There was a link first up to his video highlights.
But if you don't believe the press and don't watch the match I guess you'll be hard to convince.Also, Chris voted for Akira as man of the match
Reminds me of my favourite Hooroo quote "I hate everything I stand for".
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Mils scraped to his 200th and last in 2007 after Dagg hit the town with CJ (and got injured).
This is probably some of the best subtle pedantry I've seen.
The 200 was an error. I blame fat fingers though.
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@Duluth said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
People keep saying these great AB games by Akira I don’t remember that happening.
Drifting in and out of games but not 80mins of
quality.Eh? I didn't say great. But is your standard 80 minutes? Wow. Even Ardie can usually only manage 55.
Akira has been lauded with "MOTM" test comments from the press. I don't recall that with Blackadder.
Akira Ioane goes BEAST MODE vs Australia
Akira Ioane put on a man of the match performance in the All Blacks 38-21 victory over the Wallabies in Perth.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300170383/all-blacks-v-argentina-akira-ioane-grabs-chance-against-pumas--but-what-next
OR: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-all-blacks-number-6-jersey-is-akira-ioanes-for-as-long-as-he-wants-it/I don't take notice of the press all click bait.
There was a link first up to his video highlights.
But if you don't believe the press and don't watch the match I guess you'll be hard to convince.Also, Chris voted for Akira as man of the match
Well I really should bow to that Chris' authority then!
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@antipodean you can blame AB backline defence for that.
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Paps is the best 7 by far and SW should be captain.
Anyone who doesn't understand that must be sniffing something bad -
@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Mils scraped to his 200th and last in 2007 after Dagg hit the town with CJ (and got injured).
This is probably some of the best subtle pedantry I've seen.
The 200 was an error. I blame fat fingers though.
Are you sure that's the only error?
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
Mils scraped to his 200th and last in 2007 after Dagg hit the town with CJ (and got injured).
This is probably some of the best subtle pedantry I've seen.
The 200 was an error. I blame fat fingers though.
Are you sure that's the only error?
I have no idea what you mean ...
(and I realised just after posting without your assistance, just couldn't get back to fix it
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
That is a fern-special over-egged post, well played.
He's still pretty clearly our best 7 at the Chiefs and should be co-captain.
I think I was one of the first to argue that Paps was the new Cane, and I'm happy to see him take Cane's spot on form. With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
After that final 10mins against England, I'm not so sure.
After many of the games this year with Cane as cap, you can say the same thing
I don't recall a clear win turning into a humiliating draw within 10mins under Cane, but sure.
Who was the captain when we should have lost to Aus? I can't remember.
Sam Cane was the captain for the first quarter, then left the game with an injury.
So not him...
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@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Duluth said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
@nostrildamus said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Chris said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@TheMojoman said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Stag said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Kirwan sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong on that one.
Blackadder is terrific 6 at Super level but I haven't seen that translate into Test rugby yet.
A bit like Akira then.
Sorry that isn't strictly true. Akira showed it against the Aussies and periods elsewhere.
People keep saying these great AB games by Akira I don’t remember that happening.
Drifting in and out of games but not 80mins of
quality.Eh? I didn't say great. But is your standard 80 minutes? Wow. Even Ardie can usually only manage 55.
Akira has been lauded with "MOTM" test comments from the press. I don't recall that with Blackadder.
Akira Ioane goes BEAST MODE vs Australia
Akira Ioane put on a man of the match performance in the All Blacks 38-21 victory over the Wallabies in Perth.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300170383/all-blacks-v-argentina-akira-ioane-grabs-chance-against-pumas--but-what-next
OR: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-all-blacks-number-6-jersey-is-akira-ioanes-for-as-long-as-he-wants-it/I don't take notice of the press all click bait.
There was a link first up to his video highlights.
But if you don't believe the press and don't watch the match I guess you'll be hard to convince.Also, Chris voted for Akira as man of the match
Well I really should bow to that Chris' authority then!
so we can all come around to @Chris 's opinion...that AI has been great, MotM level even...well argued @Chris
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@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
That is a fern-special over-egged post, well played.
He's still pretty clearly our best 7 at the Chiefs and should be co-captain.
I think I was one of the first to argue that Paps was the new Cane, and I'm happy to see him take Cane's spot on form. With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
After that final 10mins against England, I'm not so sure.
After many of the games this year with Cane as cap, you can say the same thing
I don't recall a clear win turning into a humiliating draw within 10mins under Cane, but sure.
Who was the captain when we should have lost to Aus? I can't remember.
Didn't?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
That is a fern-special over-egged post, well played.
He's still pretty clearly our best 7 at the Chiefs and should be co-captain.
I think I was one of the first to argue that Paps was the new Cane, and I'm happy to see him take Cane's spot on form. With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
After that final 10mins against England, I'm not so sure.
After many of the games this year with Cane as cap, you can say the same thing
I don't think that's down to Cane, Whitelock or whoever is captain, but more a collective yips style of thing.
Totally, that was my point. The captain is not as huge of a deal as it has been in the past. It is more collective calm/clear heads. The fact that Cane is not the best 7 far outweighs any possible captaincy on the field
Don't disagree. But I think Cane offers things that Paps doesn't (and vice-versa) and they are pretty much neck and neck for me.
That said, we can't change captain based on which 7 is best for each game and game plan. Or can we?
I think we can manage that for a squad and match day. May not be traditional, but it can be done.
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@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Bones said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Machpants said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@antipodean said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
That fact that Cane is still in contention really sums up all that is wrong with the ABs now. It is almost impossible to be dropped if you are one of the leadership group. Cane has been an amazing player who has obvious mana in the AB group. But he is so far off the pace as a player now, he should be struggling to get game time at the Chiefs.
That is a fern-special over-egged post, well played.
He's still pretty clearly our best 7 at the Chiefs and should be co-captain.
I think I was one of the first to argue that Paps was the new Cane, and I'm happy to see him take Cane's spot on form. With Whitelock there, we don't need his captaincy.
After that final 10mins against England, I'm not so sure.
After many of the games this year with Cane as cap, you can say the same thing
I don't recall a clear win turning into a humiliating draw within 10mins under Cane, but sure.
Who was the captain when we should have lost to Aus? I can't remember.
Didn't?
saved by the most unusual ref's call and Foley being an ongoing idiot
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@booboo said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@gt12 said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
@mariner4life said in Thoughts on Cane now?:
i fully expect Cane to start when he is fit. Because AB coaches and selectors are super conservative, and have been for a long time (far longer than Foster). Incumbency trumps everything, and players are seemingly always brought back. It also takes a huge amount for core guys to not get picked.
On one hand, this attitude has its merits. But i feel the drawback is, to be a core guy in the ABs you are going to be a pretty fucking good player, and this means you are unlikely to send in a run of absolute stinkers that force the hand. Rather there will a micro-drop off that allows you to maintain your spot, even if another guy could take us up a level.
It's the same reason i think Moody will start the first test next year despite me having to really think hard to remember he even exists.
Funnily enough, WC years tend to bring the coaches to the point where they need to make the hard decision.
I think Moody became number one in 2015 (after not even being picked in the original squad) and Izzy Dagg overtook Mils (also at the tournament). So, we can have some big changes, but it will be interesting to see who gets the opportunities.
Excuse the pedanticism but you're conflating two tournaments there.
Mils scraped to his 200th and last in 2011 after Dagg hit the town with CJ (and got injured).
I know that Mils was dropped in 2011 at the WC. Edited accordingly.
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Back on Cane, if he played like Dalton against England I would have no qualms. But he typically doesn't.
DP was a defensive ruck demon. I'd bet my dog-eared soul he could clean out the lowest levels of hell. He complumented Ardie so well the English were backfooted, backswatted and deep-fried battered.I didn't think DP was so clearly a 7 before and he isn't, he is an all-round great hybrid loosie and was integral to that loosie trio.
