NPC 2023
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@KiwiMurph said in NPC 2023:
The 10 team NBL in NZ had been pretty successful in recent seasons hasn't it?
That still isn't a true national competition. Waikato hasn't had an NBL team in nearly a decade (their choice for financial reasons), and neither does BOP yet. That's two big markets who don't feature. NZR risks doing that to some PUs if they exclude them from any future competition.
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@mariner4life said in NPC 2023:
Why would you attribute that comment to me? It doesn't mention Hawkes Bay or complain about Canterbury, although I do agree with the sentiment.
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I just sneak in as Gen X and I spend far more more money on Super than I do on NPC (I jersey, one hoodie, two singlets, 2 shorts for Super versus 1 pair of shorts for Waikato).
I couldn't give a toss about Waikato winning, neat if it happens, but I'd trade us getting the spoon for the Chiefs to win.
I'd probably trade us getting the spoon every year if it guaranteed a Chiefs win every three years.
My feeling is that the younger you are, the more you align with Super. It's time to recognise that and roll with it.
I'm not sure this is the same for every province though. My younger cousins regularly go to Magpies games, but they barely go to Super games - for obvious reasons. This again highlights the potential divide between the Super franchise bases and the provincial, um, provinces. I like watching Super rugby obviously as a rugby fan, and I want the Chiefs to win every year, but I'd take the Chiefs getting the spoon every year for the Magpies to win the NPC. Hell, I'd even take the Crusaders winning it for eternity.
What I'm most annoyed about now is that NZR seems to be deliberately devaluing/not supporting the NPC, which allows them to complain about how poorly it's doing - easy to claim a slow death if you're slipping mercury in it each evening. Do we have a conspiracy theory thread? I may need to go post there.
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@Nepia yep, as a Northland supporter I happily watch Super rugby but with no fixed loyalties. Usually the Crusaders have had more Northland players than the Blues (not many in either case) which has helped. But NPC rugby is where the expletives and frustrations come readily to the surface.
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I just sneak in as Gen X and I spend far more more money on Super than I do on NPC (I jersey, one hoodie, two singlets, 2 shorts for Super versus 1 pair of shorts for Waikato).
I couldn't give a toss about Waikato winning, neat if it happens, but I'd trade us getting the spoon for the Chiefs to win.
I'd probably trade us getting the spoon every year if it guaranteed a Chiefs win every three years.
My feeling is that the younger you are, the more you align with Super. It's time to recognise that and roll with it.
I'm not sure this is the same for every province though. My younger cousins regularly go to Magpies games, but they barely go to Super games - for obvious reasons. This again highlights the potential divide between the Super franchise bases and the provincial, um, provinces. I like watching Super rugby obviously as a rugby fan, and I want the Chiefs to win every year, but I'd take the Chiefs getting the spoon every year for the Magpies to win the NPC. Hell, I'd even take the Crusaders winning it for eternity.
What I'm most annoyed about now is that NZR seems to be deliberately devaluing/not supporting the NPC, which allows them to complain about how poorly it's doing - easy to claim a slow death if you're slipping mercury in it each evening. Do we have a conspiracy theory thread? I may need to go post there.
Ok boomer.
So how about a competition at NPC that doesn’t happen in the Super centers?
Withdraw Auckland, Waikato, Wellington, Canterbury and Otago and let the regions play for it.
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Special Magpies game to ‘virtually fill’ Eden Park for HB flood relief
The game on August 26 is set to 'tackle the floods'.
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@KiwiMurph said in NPC 2023:
The 10 team NBL in NZ had been pretty successful in recent seasons hasn't it?
That still isn't a true national competition. Waikato hasn't had an NBL team in nearly a decade (their choice for financial reasons), and neither does BOP yet. That's two big markets who don't feature. NZR risks doing that to some PUs if they exclude them from any future competition.
and thats why the old NPC with promotion and relegation worked, if you're good enough then you move up...if you're getting hidings then you go down
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How much appetite would there be from Southland, Northland and Manawatu to have a promotion relegation tournament? They won't be keep their top line players if there is the constant threat of being relegated.
These days, once you go down, you'll never go back up again. With the stadiums of the Heartland sides, probably not in a position to host night fixtures only those three teams could go back up. The other sides in the Heartland division probably wouldn't have the financial capability to go up either.
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@Kiwiwomble didnt really work for teams coming up though, even when teams in the 2nd div dominated, they would be well short when playing that match.
I dont think that is the answer to the problem.
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@taniwharugby but isnt that just because they weren't good enough? which is kind of the point, playing in the top division doesnt inherently make teams better , just look at aussie in super rugby or if im honest Otago currently
so we need to decide, do we want EVERYONES teams playing everyone elses... hidings everywhere but everyone is involved and hopefully the over all level will raise....or do we want multiple divisions based roughly on ability with the chance to move around.....not sure we can have both
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@Kiwiwomble but thats the point, if a team gets relegated, they will lose players, wont attract new quality ones, therefore they will likely get stuck down there, so if they do win the chance at the promo game, they get pumped, it isnt just if they are good enough, it impacts thier resources too.
I think it works in football because football is inherently a closer sport.
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Playing quality opposition may not always make teams better. However, playing in a lower grade will certainly ensure that the lower teams will never get to the standard required to compete.
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The consensus at the time was that it screwed over the so-called yo-yo teams
They also tried playoff matches but that didn't work out either
Reading this thread is interesting how many times people are suggesting things that have been tried and failed (lets split the 14 teams into two pools!)
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@taniwharugby said in NPC 2023:
@Kiwiwomble but thats the point, if a team gets relegated, they will lose players, wont attract new quality ones, therefore they will likely get stuck down there, so if they do win the chance at the promo game, they get pumped, it isnt just if they are good enough, it impacts thier resources too.
I think it works in football because football is inherently a closer sport.
maybe, but i also think football fans are more happy to just go and watch their team regardless of if theyre going to get pumped
just automatic promotion helps too, if a team knows they have won promotion then they should be able to attract new players for the next season...same if we actually hold players to contracts you shouldnt lose too many if you drop
@Duluth yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
edit: maybe thats the problem, weve tried lots of different tweaks so people have all seen a version they like...and so only want that....with football they havent changed that actual competition format that much and so fan accept it for what it is and just try and enjoy the game
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I think the first question that needs to be answered is what is the model for Super Rugby. Is the Super season long enough. Are the right teams involved. If its season needs to be expanded. How long is it. Does it then overlap over the top of NPC.
If it does, is NPC more of a spring tournament. I don't think the future of NPC can be sorted, until the correct model for our premier domestic competition Super Rugby is nailed down.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
The competition has been broken for a long time and it is in a death spiral. I think the entire season (club, NPC & SR) has needed a drastic reform for a long time.
Without reform we are drifting towards SR, AB's & amateur rugby. A lot of areas will be losers in that situation
A consolidated single competition would result in some losers but more winners. The irony is that those resistant to change because they want to protect all 14 provinces, will cause more harm to the provinces
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
maybe, but i also think football fans are more happy to just go and watch their team regardless of if theyre going to get pumped
er, I support Northland!
As I said yesterday, my personal view is NZR would like to do away with NPC completely, focussing on Super and ABs.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
The competition has been broken for a long time and it is in a death spiral. I think the entire season (club, NPC & SR) has needed a drastic reform for a long time.
Without reform we are drifting towards SR, AB's & amateur rugby. A lot of areas will be losers in that situation
A consolidated single competition would result in some losers but more winners. The irony is that those resistant to change because they want to protect all 14 provinces, will cause more harm to the provinces
i agree...100%...but every time it get suggests half a dozen people come in a pick holes...it feels like no proposal has more than like 20% of fans supporting it...so lets just give up, support your local club team and the AB's and fuck the rest
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I just sneak in as Gen X and I spend far more more money on Super than I do on NPC (I jersey, one hoodie, two singlets, 2 shorts for Super versus 1 pair of shorts for Waikato).
I couldn't give a toss about Waikato winning, neat if it happens, but I'd trade us getting the spoon for the Chiefs to win.
I'd probably trade us getting the spoon every year if it guaranteed a Chiefs win every three years.
My feeling is that the younger you are, the more you align with Super. It's time to recognise that and roll with it.
I'm not sure this is the same for every province though. My younger cousins regularly go to Magpies games, but they barely go to Super games - for obvious reasons. This again highlights the potential divide between the Super franchise bases and the provincial, um, provinces. I like watching Super rugby obviously as a rugby fan, and I want the Chiefs to win every year, but I'd take the Chiefs getting the spoon every year for the Magpies to win the NPC. Hell, I'd even take the Crusaders winning it for eternity.
What I'm most annoyed about now is that NZR seems to be deliberately devaluing/not supporting the NPC, which allows them to complain about how poorly it's doing - easy to claim a slow death if you're slipping mercury in it each evening. Do we have a conspiracy theory thread? I may need to go post there.
Ok boomer.
So how about a competition at NPC that doesn’t happen in the Super centers?
Withdraw Auckland, Waikato, Wellington, Canterbury and Otago and let the regions play for it.
No need to get nasty.
