NPC 2023
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@taniwharugby but isnt that just because they weren't good enough? which is kind of the point, playing in the top division doesnt inherently make teams better , just look at aussie in super rugby or if im honest Otago currently
so we need to decide, do we want EVERYONES teams playing everyone elses... hidings everywhere but everyone is involved and hopefully the over all level will raise....or do we want multiple divisions based roughly on ability with the chance to move around.....not sure we can have both
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@Kiwiwomble but thats the point, if a team gets relegated, they will lose players, wont attract new quality ones, therefore they will likely get stuck down there, so if they do win the chance at the promo game, they get pumped, it isnt just if they are good enough, it impacts thier resources too.
I think it works in football because football is inherently a closer sport.
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Playing quality opposition may not always make teams better. However, playing in a lower grade will certainly ensure that the lower teams will never get to the standard required to compete.
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The consensus at the time was that it screwed over the so-called yo-yo teams
They also tried playoff matches but that didn't work out either
Reading this thread is interesting how many times people are suggesting things that have been tried and failed (lets split the 14 teams into two pools!)
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@taniwharugby said in NPC 2023:
@Kiwiwomble but thats the point, if a team gets relegated, they will lose players, wont attract new quality ones, therefore they will likely get stuck down there, so if they do win the chance at the promo game, they get pumped, it isnt just if they are good enough, it impacts thier resources too.
I think it works in football because football is inherently a closer sport.
maybe, but i also think football fans are more happy to just go and watch their team regardless of if theyre going to get pumped
just automatic promotion helps too, if a team knows they have won promotion then they should be able to attract new players for the next season...same if we actually hold players to contracts you shouldnt lose too many if you drop
@Duluth yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
edit: maybe thats the problem, weve tried lots of different tweaks so people have all seen a version they like...and so only want that....with football they havent changed that actual competition format that much and so fan accept it for what it is and just try and enjoy the game
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I think the first question that needs to be answered is what is the model for Super Rugby. Is the Super season long enough. Are the right teams involved. If its season needs to be expanded. How long is it. Does it then overlap over the top of NPC.
If it does, is NPC more of a spring tournament. I don't think the future of NPC can be sorted, until the correct model for our premier domestic competition Super Rugby is nailed down.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
The competition has been broken for a long time and it is in a death spiral. I think the entire season (club, NPC & SR) has needed a drastic reform for a long time.
Without reform we are drifting towards SR, AB's & amateur rugby. A lot of areas will be losers in that situation
A consolidated single competition would result in some losers but more winners. The irony is that those resistant to change because they want to protect all 14 provinces, will cause more harm to the provinces
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
maybe, but i also think football fans are more happy to just go and watch their team regardless of if theyre going to get pumped
er, I support Northland!
As I said yesterday, my personal view is NZR would like to do away with NPC completely, focussing on Super and ABs.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC 2023:
yeah, i dont know then, feels like we've tried everything and people will always find something wrong, might just have to live with it how it is
The competition has been broken for a long time and it is in a death spiral. I think the entire season (club, NPC & SR) has needed a drastic reform for a long time.
Without reform we are drifting towards SR, AB's & amateur rugby. A lot of areas will be losers in that situation
A consolidated single competition would result in some losers but more winners. The irony is that those resistant to change because they want to protect all 14 provinces, will cause more harm to the provinces
i agree...100%...but every time it get suggests half a dozen people come in a pick holes...it feels like no proposal has more than like 20% of fans supporting it...so lets just give up, support your local club team and the AB's and fuck the rest
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I just sneak in as Gen X and I spend far more more money on Super than I do on NPC (I jersey, one hoodie, two singlets, 2 shorts for Super versus 1 pair of shorts for Waikato).
I couldn't give a toss about Waikato winning, neat if it happens, but I'd trade us getting the spoon for the Chiefs to win.
I'd probably trade us getting the spoon every year if it guaranteed a Chiefs win every three years.
My feeling is that the younger you are, the more you align with Super. It's time to recognise that and roll with it.
I'm not sure this is the same for every province though. My younger cousins regularly go to Magpies games, but they barely go to Super games - for obvious reasons. This again highlights the potential divide between the Super franchise bases and the provincial, um, provinces. I like watching Super rugby obviously as a rugby fan, and I want the Chiefs to win every year, but I'd take the Chiefs getting the spoon every year for the Magpies to win the NPC. Hell, I'd even take the Crusaders winning it for eternity.
What I'm most annoyed about now is that NZR seems to be deliberately devaluing/not supporting the NPC, which allows them to complain about how poorly it's doing - easy to claim a slow death if you're slipping mercury in it each evening. Do we have a conspiracy theory thread? I may need to go post there.
Ok boomer.
So how about a competition at NPC that doesn’t happen in the Super centers?
Withdraw Auckland, Waikato, Wellington, Canterbury and Otago and let the regions play for it.
No need to get nasty.
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@Nepia He is right in a round about sort of way. Just make the NPC open to all those that want to take part and those that don't want to, or can't afford to (Wellington for example?), don't have to. The winner will still be New Zealand's Champion Province regardless of who competes a la a couple of seasons ago when covid prevented Auckland etc from taking part.
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@Kiwiwomble obviously the PU's will have a vested interest in the status quo, or something similar that involves them and would fight to avoid being kicked into oblivion.
I think it is a bit rich for Robinson to come out and say it isnt fit for purpose when there has been at least 1 format change under his watch, continued devaluing of it as a component of NZ Rugby's system.
I agree that something needs to change, but I am not sure what or how to get somethign workable, and agreeable to all Unions while also complying with NZR's constitution around the community game.
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@taniwharugby said in NPC 2023:
@Kiwiwomble obviously the PU's will have a vested interest in the status quo, or something similar that involves them and would fight to avoid being kicked into oblivion.
I think it is a bit rich for Robinson to come out and say it isnt fit for purpose when there has been at least 1 format change under his watch, continued devaluing of it as a component of NZ Rugby's system.
I agree that something needs to change, but I am not sure what or how to get somethign workable, and agreeable to all Unions while also complying with NZR's constitution around the community game.
thats going to be the stumbling block...there is always going to be a "loser" if we have to draw a line between two teams
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@Kiwiwomble and that was one of the biggest stuff ups back in 2008, it appeared NZR had decided which teams they wanted gone (Northland & Ta$man) through some rather interesting criteria, which meant they could challenge the decision legally so NZR had to back down, and then they chopped and changed the format ever since.
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I have no problem with the 14 team format and think it is viable. The issues raised will be time and money. Why don’t they let the season finish later? Why don’t they make it a competition with some competition rules (salary caps, player pools)? key thing they haven’t done is manage the competition to make it a competition. Part of that needs to be a push for international transfer fees. The investment in players is huge and loyalty is being eroded by big money.
But all the NZRFU energy has gone to Super rugby. That competition for all the money struggles and the same comments re NPC also applies. The Aussie teams are sub standard and no one watches their games despite all the investment.
The NPC alternatives would mean the loss of the smaller unions - Northland, Southland, Manawatu. Ta$man would be there also but their financial backing, success of crusader’s franchise has allowed them import any number of players. Smart. Hawkes Bay might be the other.
The flow of players through professional pathways starts at school. Without a NPC side, Northland just becomes a feeder union and rugby for me would I think die in the area. Might as well play hockey, football. I would cancel my sky subscription.
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I have no problem with the 14 team format and think it is viable.
Thanks, you answered that question
First division NPC in the 1990's had 9 teams and had All Blacks playing
Taking away the best ~30 players and adding another ~150 players has had an impact on quality. Plus you need to consider the ever increasing number of NZ players that have gone overseas. This is spreading the talent very thin
It's a completely different beast to the successful competition that proceeded it.
That's why it doesn't make sense to pair nostalgia/history based arguments with support for the diluted competition
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There isn't enough money in NZ to pay 14 professional teams
Players will not make enough to make a salary cap worth it, and i think it will just speed up the exodus. Oh Canterbury can't afford me, i can move to Nelson for a little more, or Japan for a lot more. That's a pretty easy choice in many instances.
International Transfer Fees for what? Almost everyone who leaves is at the end of their contract. That's a free agent.This is a pointless exercise because many fans can't see past the end of their own noses. And this is where the discussion usually dies "i like this because it suits me, realities of the situation do not matter".
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@mariner4life said in NPC 2023:
many fans can't see past the end of their own noses
That applies to both fans who prefer their province to stay in the NPC as well as the big city dwellers who can't wait to ditch some smaller provinces.
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@mariner4life tbf, its the PUs who are self-interested (fans opinions count for little at the end of the day) for obvious reasons, while many of them are operating within thier means, I expect this is in part due to NZ payments from broadcast and other stuff that was built off the NPC success in years gone by, NZR kept saying they'd be tougher on those that live outside thier means, but havent...no win situation for both parties
And we dont really have 14 professional teams...all bar Ta$man
are semi-professional 
Again, I think NZR needs to decide if it can remain viable if the NPC continues down the path they have allowed it to.
