NPC 2023
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I think a 14-team competition is viable, but not in one division, or not in the current format.
I also think a 14-team competition is necessary for rugby to survive in all 14 provinces.
I don't think it being a 14-team competition is the root of the problem. I think the lack of promotion, the constant changes, the negative attitude of the media towards the competition (seemingly fed by NZR's attitude towards the comp.), the grounds the games are played in some provinces (stadiums too big), the prices of food/drinks a some venues, the times games are played etc are to blame.
If some provinces live beyond their means (Wellington, for example), they should be forced to live within their means. If small provinces like Manawatū and Southland have to do it, why not the big unions?
I think changes to SR could also help NPC, like playing more SR games in the smaller provinces.
SR is too long (for financial gain); if they'd scrap the 2nd games against the same opponents, SR would be shorter and NPC could become longer (proper round robin).But again, I think a lot could be gained by good promotion of the NPC. If NZR shows enthusiasme towards the NPC instead of that stupid social media post, that could be a good first step.
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@taniwharugby said in NPC 2023:
@Duluth I guess the real question should be, will NZ rugby remain sustainable and viable without an NPC.
Exactly. Will it remain the game for all NZs? Or just be a version of the Americas Cup and Team NZ.
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However NPC threads have less posts, people aren't discussing NPC matches as much as previous years, the tipping comp has fewer numbers and general interest is down on previous years (SR posting was up)
It may be like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Be negative on the TSF about the NPC long and often enough, and more people will become negative about the NPC. Or people stop posting about it. They'll just watch the games. The negativity here is sometimes very off-putting. -
@Stargazer i dont think you and i are 100% aligned....but there are lots of things i agree with in that post
I think our whole rugby "pyramid" is messed up, as many AB's games and super a year and more than NPC is all back to front, less super and international, more NPC would make the higher level games more sacred/special/unmissable and NPC the default place for a rugby fix
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I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
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@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:
I don't think it being a 14-team competition is the root of the problem
Neither, I just picked this point because it's difficult to defend (which is why others have talked about history instead)
You've even admitted above that the 14 teams need to be split up again. Southland was happier without the single division.. more changes.. but changes are bad.. also weren't you happy when it went to a single division?
It's a mess
I think NZR probably would like to change the structure of the whole season but there is so much resistance. There reality is that the decision to make SR the primary competition a generation ago meant the NPC would decline as it has
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The quality of promotion of matches locally by unions makes this inevitable. I can't believe how little effort there is, and how poor the little provided is. They seem to be looking for a 'newer younger' audience, but they don't give a toss about the longtime fans.
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
I keep asking because I doubt anyone seriously thinks this format is workable. However if anyone suggests reforms it gets shot down
My preferences would be for something similar to the 1990's 8-10 teams with All Blacks and no Super Rugby
It would be better than the NPC continuing to fade away and 5 SR teams are all we have forever
Yeah I don't think continuing is viable but I deplore NZR running it into the ground, removing investment, having other brands within the same stable make comments that suggest nothing else is on etc
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
I would argue you could expand the NZ teams without losing much. Its not like the Australian teams haven't devalued it anyway already
Even with my suggestion some teams will still miss out but I suspect someones going to miss out regardless
I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I just sneak in as Gen X and I spend far more more money on Super than I do on NPC (I jersey, one hoodie, two singlets, 2 shorts for Super versus 1 pair of shorts for Waikato).
I couldn't give a toss about Waikato winning, neat if it happens, but I'd trade us getting the spoon for the Chiefs to win.
I'd probably trade us getting the spoon every year if it guaranteed a Chiefs win every three years.
My feeling is that the younger you are, the more you align with Super. It's time to recognise that and roll with it.
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
A single 8-10 competition? With more tribalism closer to the NPC 30 years ago? A better 'product' than SR. Sounds great
There's too much resistance to change though . So we are stuck with a slow NPC death and a shitty SR comp
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I think NZR probably would like to change the structure of the whole season but there is so much resistance. There reality is that the decision to make SR the primary competition a generation ago mean the NPC would decline as it has
and i would say its moving on again to the AB's and a primary focus....if a international world league got off the ground then i think super rugby could be ignored just as fast
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The quality of promotion of matches locally by unions makes this inevitable. I can't believe how little effort there is, and how poor the little provided is. They seem to be looking for a 'newer younger' audience, but they don't give a toss about the longtime fans.
im not even sure thats true any more given how little they do on any social media...they kind of just expect people to turn up
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@Stargazer said in NPC 2023:
It may be like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Be negative on the TSF about the NPC long and often enough, and more people will become negative about the NPC. Or people stop posting about it. They'll just watch the games. The negativity here is sometimes very off-putting.There's plenty of negativity around SR. Numbers are up.
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@bayimports said in NPC 2023:
The strengths of the NPC have been its tribal nature which Super Rugby has never really achieved and that is the product they want to invest in. Super Rugby is a better product for sure but perhaps it would be better with some extra NZ players (who then don't have to play for Aus to get selected).
A single 8-10 competition? With more tribalism closer to the NPC 30 years ago? A better 'product' than SR. Sounds great
There's too much resistance to change though . So we are stuck with a slow NPC death and a shitty SR comp
do we think eventually we'll see the unions as old school representative teams, selected from the local clubs comps just to do some minor tours and the ranfurly shield?
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I don't think this is true, except for places like here (or likely any rugby forum) where it is mainly boomers and older Gen X.
I don't think that supports Super Rugby replicating tribalism? That supports an alternative view of Waikato at NPC level and what you care for and what potentially younger generations care for (which is also a valid argument for a product, of which I also agree with, but it is not tribalism to the extent that NPC had at its peak).
I don't disagree that NPC needs to change (if be kept at all)
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@KiwiMurph for me i think promotion/relegation is important....that tiny glimmer of hope for the lower division team or desperation a team at the bottom of the table gains can be powerful for driving engagement
where as currently fans of teams at the bottom after a few weeks can lose a bit of interest as the season might already be gone...fighting to stay up can cause some upsets
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Must be affordability issues for the likes of Otago, Wellington, Auckland and Waikato to continue renting their expensive stadiums with average crowds.
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You've even admitted above that the 14 teams need to be split up again.
Not necessarily the way you may think.
I'm more thinking in an alternative format to that of the Heartland Ch'ship, where eventually teams are split up in a Cup (Meads Cup) and a Plate (Lochore Cup) style format.also weren't you happy when it went to a single division?
No, I wasn't too sure it would work. I had just seen them do that in the FPC for one season (due to covid) and how some Ch'ship teams were totally beaten up by Prem'ship teams. I wondered whether something similar (although not just as severe) would happen in the NPC.
