What is Good for Women's Rugby
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@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial I'm talking about creating an audience that is prepared to pay for sport beyond those who have invested in the excitement of a one-off event.
That's the thinking that NZR have to get past IMO
Does Women's Rugby have to be a profit centre? Maybe it can be like a breakeven supermarket product that gets people through the doors and strengthens the overall cashflow. Maybe even a loss leader by itself that drives benefits elsewhere. Eyes on the game are still eyes on the game as far as sponsors go and the task of NZR is not to be a corporation but to maintain the health of the game. Sure, money is a part of that, but it is blinkered views to expect that every cost centre is profitable. NPC is already propped up by the top end but we couldn't have the ABs without NPC.
Oh boy. So where is the money supposed to come from to run the game when we run things at a loss?
If we don't plan for woman's rugby to be at least cost neutral (preferably profitable to grow it's niche) then you are just cannibalising the mens game, which is already in poor health. This is wrong thinking, we shouldn't be propping up the NPC either, we should be generating more interest and profit from that too. The game will collapse without being sustainable, at least as a professional sport.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial oh, now you are labelling criticism of your gender over ability opinion as cringing.
Thinking that only woman can have insight into woman’s sport is pandering virtue signalling. It’s helpful to swap genders when people say silly things like that, imagine saying that you’d have to be a man to employ the best for the men’s game.
You’d be driven off the internet.
Only by people that deliberately misread posts to drive their own views.
Where have I said 'gender over ability'? I have gone out of the way to try and remove this misinterpretation but hey, keep going back to it.
"Only women can have insights into women's sports". Again, where have I said that.
This thread is fast becoming the ghost of BSG.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
That's the political belief arugument that I stated was for another forum. I don't make the Sports NZ rules, nor have I agreed with them. I stated them as a fact.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial oh, now you are labelling criticism of your gender over ability opinion as cringing.
Thinking that only woman can have insight into woman’s sport is pandering virtue signalling. It’s helpful to swap genders when people say silly things like that, imagine saying that you’d have to be a man to employ the best for the men’s game.
You’d be driven off the internet.
Only by people that deliberately misread posts to drive their own views.
Where have I said 'gender over ability'? I have gone out of the way to try and remove this misinterpretation but hey, keep going back to it.
"Only women can have insights into women's sports". Again, where have I said that.
This thread is fast becoming the ghost of BSG.
Ad hominem attacks aren't helping your argument. I'm discussing the subject about you try and do the same?
You have clearly said that you think that by just being a woman they'll have more insight than a man for woman's sport. Do you think the opposite with men and the men's game? What exactly are these insights?
It's a ludicrous position that is just accepted these days. To restate what I said earlier, for men and woman's sport the gender is not important, the individual's ability is. I'd have no problem with a woman being the CEO of NZR, I certainly wouldn't be saying that a man was preferable because of some magic insight he has because of his gender.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial I'm talking about creating an audience that is prepared to pay for sport beyond those who have invested in the excitement of a one-off event.
That's the thinking that NZR have to get past IMO
Does Women's Rugby have to be a profit centre? Maybe it can be like a breakeven supermarket product that gets people through the doors and strengthens the overall cashflow. Maybe even a loss leader by itself that drives benefits elsewhere. Eyes on the game are still eyes on the game as far as sponsors go and the task of NZR is not to be a corporation but to maintain the health of the game. Sure, money is a part of that, but it is blinkered views to expect that every cost centre is profitable. NPC is already propped up by the top end but we couldn't have the ABs without NPC.
Oh boy. So where is the money supposed to come from to run the game when we run things at a loss?
If we don't plan for woman's rugby to be at least cost neutral (preferably profitable to grow it's niche) then you are just cannibalising the mens game, which is already in poor health. This is wrong thinking, we shouldn't be propping up the NPC either, we should be generating more interest and profit from that too. The game will collapse without being sustainable, at least as a professional sport.
A very narrow view IMO. Would you remove NPC from the calendar as well? That is far from being cost neutral.
Have you thought that a Women's game cost centre that runs at a loss may improve the bottom line in the mens game?
All sorts of ways that can happen. More involvement by girls can drive more involvement by boys. Families investing effort into the womens game increases interest in the game overall. More community involvement in clubs = less strain on Provinces = less support needed at that level....... -
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
You have clearly said that you think that by just being a woman they'll have more insight than a man for woman's sport.
Correct. But you keep twisting that into this...
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
only woman can have insight into woman’s sport is pandering virtue signalling.
The two statements are not the same and you are either deliberately changing them to make your equality point or can't comprehend.
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
To restate what I said earlier, for men and woman's sport the gender is not important, the individual's ability is. I'd have no problem with a woman being the CEO of NZR, I certainly wouldn't be saying that a man was preferable because of some magic insight he has because of his gender.
I have no issue with what you say here, just that you keep trying to paint my position as something different to what I am saying.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female. Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.
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@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female. Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.
A good example. NZRPA had to add clauses into the collective agreement around menstrual cycles being taken into account because they weren't and it was causing problems in areas of expectations and communication.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial I'm talking about creating an audience that is prepared to pay for sport beyond those who have invested in the excitement of a one-off event.
That's the thinking that NZR have to get past IMO
Does Women's Rugby have to be a profit centre? Maybe it can be like a breakeven supermarket product that gets people through the doors and strengthens the overall cashflow. Maybe even a loss leader by itself that drives benefits elsewhere. Eyes on the game are still eyes on the game as far as sponsors go and the task of NZR is not to be a corporation but to maintain the health of the game. Sure, money is a part of that, but it is blinkered views to expect that every cost centre is profitable. NPC is already propped up by the top end but we couldn't have the ABs without NPC.
Oh boy. So where is the money supposed to come from to run the game when we run things at a loss?
If we don't plan for woman's rugby to be at least cost neutral (preferably profitable to grow it's niche) then you are just cannibalising the mens game, which is already in poor health. This is wrong thinking, we shouldn't be propping up the NPC either, we should be generating more interest and profit from that too. The game will collapse without being sustainable, at least as a professional sport.
A very narrow view IMO. Would you remove NPC from the calendar as well? That is far from being cost neutral.
Have you thought that a Women's game cost centre that runs at a loss may improve the bottom line in the mens game?
All sorts of ways that can happen. More involvement by girls can drive more involvement by boys. Families investing effort into the womens game increases interest in the game overall. More community involvement in clubs = less strain on Provinces = less support needed at that level.......As I said in my post, the NPC is not sustainable and needs to be improved and have more support from the NZR - not less.
The rest of your post is little more than wishful thinking. If they rob Peter to pay Paul then I expect that the professional game in NZ will get worse not better. While I support woman's rugby in principle, it's not at the cost of health of the sport. So it's extremely important that whatever they plan to do is appropriate to the scale of the game currently, and with planned growth and covered costs.
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@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female. Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.
Finally, someone with examples not just throwing out "woman have more insight".
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way. He's slowly moved away from that, which is good because that will throw away a lot of talent and slow the growth of the woman's game IMO.
So my basic point is you don't need to artifically lean towards gender, picking the best people will naturally get a mix of genders and you'll get the outcomes like you describe in your example. Where we have failed in the past is woman didn't get those opportunties. The solution to that is not quotas, and certainly not fining lack of representation on boards.
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@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan you are the one politicising the subject. Can you, please, stop, even if you disagree with what is being said? Or maybe continue it in "Politics"? Or maybe just accept that you dont' have to win every argument? It's spoiling the thread.
It's a thread about woman's sport, talking about an aspect of what Crucial thinks is good for woman's rugby. We are having a pretty civil conversation about a thorny topic, and we couldn't be any more on topic for the thread.
I thought you got over trying to police what people were posting in threads.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crazy-Horse said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial The fact that you just blow past the statement Sports NZ fining an organisation for lack of female represenation on a board and just accept that is an OK policy is exactly why I'm pushing back so hard. These sorts of policies won't help any organisation be more successful at anything.
It's the old equality of outcome over equality of opportunity argument. Once you introduce quotas for anything you by definition are no longer chasing the best candidates.
I think I can see where @Crucial is coming from (apologies to @Crucial if I am wrong). I don't think he is disagreeing with your assertion of having the best people for the job regardless of gender. I think he is suggesting sometimes that best person may well be a female, simply because she is a female. Take uniform issues for example. For years females were forced to wear white clothing - white shorts in footy or white undies in tennis. As a male I had no idea of the issues this can cause during certain times of the month. It never even crossed my mind and I am betting it didn't cross many men's mind until it was pointed out. This is an issue that is only now starting to be addressed in women's sport because women are getting into positions of power and subsequently getting a voice.
Finally, someone with examples not just throwing out "woman have more insight".
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way. He's slowly moved away from that, which is good because that will throw away a lot of talent and slow the growth of the woman's game IMO.
So my basic point is you don't need to artifically lean towards gender, picking the best people will naturally get a mix of genders and you'll get the outcomes like you describe in your example. Where we have failed in the past is woman didn't get those opportunties. The solution to that is not quotas, and certainly not fining lack of representation on boards.
Your last paragraph is spot on. I think workplaces/organisations are starting to realise this. I know mine did after trying a quota system for a year or so.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
You literally said;
"I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines"and then made cracks about "A game designed by woman.....by men"
But putting that to one side, picking the best candidates will naturally include woman without artificially making it a requirement in hiring selections.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
You literally said;
"I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines"and then made cracks about "A game designed by woman.....by men"
But putting that to one side, picking the best candidates will naturally include woman without artificially making it a requirement in hiring selections.
And I have never advocated quotas, just that I would like to see it get to that point by involvement and choosing the best possible.
Where we differ is the definition of 'best'. I think that there are added benefits that some women can bring that may tip things in their favour. Not accelerated beyond abilities.This discussion has got well away from the intention of the post. I am talking about the game at the key youth and development levels to increase and maintain participation. My view is that more involvement and design by women at those levels would be advantageous.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
You literally said;
"I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines"and then made cracks about "A game designed by woman.....by men"
But putting that to one side, picking the best candidates will naturally include woman without artificially making it a requirement in hiring selections.
And I have never advocated quotas, just that I would like to see it get to that point by involvement and choosing the best possible.
Where we differ is the definition of 'best'. I think that there are added benefits that some women can bring that may tip things in their favour. Not accelerated beyond abilities.This discussion has got well away from the intention of the post. I am talking about the game at the key youth and development levels to increase and maintain participation. My view is that more involvement and design by women at those levels would be advantageous.
No, where we differ is the inclusion of gender as criterion for determining best.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
You literally said;
"I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines"and then made cracks about "A game designed by woman.....by men"
But putting that to one side, picking the best candidates will naturally include woman without artificially making it a requirement in hiring selections.
And I have never advocated quotas, just that I would like to see it get to that point by involvement and choosing the best possible.
Where we differ is the definition of 'best'. I think that there are added benefits that some women can bring that may tip things in their favour. Not accelerated beyond abilities.This discussion has got well away from the intention of the post. I am talking about the game at the key youth and development levels to increase and maintain participation. My view is that more involvement and design by women at those levels would be advantageous.
No, where we differ is the inclusion of gender as criterion for determining best.
And I said many post ago that I fundamentally disagree with your view on that.
If, as you concede, men and women can bring different attributes to a role then why isn't it possible that those attributes could be deemed desirable? If the attribute is, say, an understanding of the physical and emotional needs of developing adolescent women then it stands to reason that more female candidates will meet that requirement than male.
You don't get he job by being female but you may be more likely to be the best depending on the weight applied to attributes. That's not discrimination. -
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Crucial's first couple of posts on this was leaning very heavily of pick mostly woman and for men to get out of the way.
Your interpretation. Not what I meant , I have have tried to clarify many times.
here's the view in a nutshell.
"If women can get involved even more in running the womens game (as the best qualified to do so) I think that there may be advantages to that in many areas. If that means that a female perspective in areas is deemed an advantageous quality in candidate selection then so be it."
One of the reasons that Bunting was so admired by the sevens players was that alongside his coaching cred he actively tried to understand the needs of the players that were different to men. He ensured that he had good female coaching and management participation alongside him and has actively supported their development. His game analyst turned skills coach turned into his assistant at Chiefs Manawa and is now Head Coach. Judged best person for the job and that will bring benefits to the game in showing that pathways exist which is a driver to participation.
You literally said;
"I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines"and then made cracks about "A game designed by woman.....by men"
But putting that to one side, picking the best candidates will naturally include woman without artificially making it a requirement in hiring selections.
And I have never advocated quotas, just that I would like to see it get to that point by involvement and choosing the best possible.
Where we differ is the definition of 'best'. I think that there are added benefits that some women can bring that may tip things in their favour. Not accelerated beyond abilities.This discussion has got well away from the intention of the post. I am talking about the game at the key youth and development levels to increase and maintain participation. My view is that more involvement and design by women at those levels would be advantageous.
No, where we differ is the inclusion of gender as criterion for determining best.
And I said many post ago that I fundamentally disagree with your view on that.
If, as you concede, men and women can bring different attributes to a role then why isn't it possible that those attributes could be deemed desirable? If the attribute is, say, an understanding of the physical and emotional needs of developing adolescent women then it stands to reason that more female candidates will meet that requirement than male.
You don't get he job by being female but you may be more likely to be the best depending on the weight applied to attributes. That's not discrimination.Flip the gender, still not discrimination?
Mark Robinson clearly has a better understanding of the physical and emotional needs of developing adolescent men. It's a silly argument.
