All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is, that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Was he really any good or did it just appear that way compared to Havilii ?
I haven't watched the game, sounded like he had a mare. But I'd still take him on the bench over Havili, RTS , Goodhue if we are playing RM at 10 and RI 13
Same. I don't get the shit ALB is getting. Was anybody saying ALB should be dumped prior to this game? Sure, he didn't have the best of games, but his past performances suggest he is a better player than that. He is only just back from a decent injury break, with a season of Super Rugby under his belt he will be good enough to cover the midfield from the bench.
Totally agree. He is just rusty. He is a good player that need more game time to get his mojo back.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
That point makes no sense. Giving Havili more time to show he isn't fit to be a backup 12 doesn't provide a solution to the hypothetical question.
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After watching this morning some thoughts.
I am Groot had an off game, think he missed as many tackles as he made. Nepo made more runs than normal which was good, but replacement props in general looked to add more stability to scrum.
ST always good and CT also good when he came on.
SW looked ok although did not dominate and Scott Barrett had another strong performance.
Akira strong early, good line out option. Didn't do enough though I would have thought to keep his detractors at bay. Frizzel was solid and more direct when he came on, not as athletic or versatile but looked busy enough to keep the six position a lottery for the selectors. Personally I could argue that in Akira's first 20 he was just as busy, but not my call.
Dalton flat footed on one occasion that led to a try, but made many tackles elsewhere. Him and Ardie both were industrious and strong throughout.9-13 sucked big hairy balls.
FC, DH should not be seen in black again. Sloppy and replacements out performed both of them. This is not the first time either
BB at 10 should not be seen at 10 again unless injury. Our second try was JB doing a kick pass with accuracy that BB failed over and over again.
ALB improved as the game went on, didn't perform that well at 13 although improved when he moved to 12. It could have been just the extra game time in his legs, but his best period was later in the game. FC had also disappeared by then too.
Caleb continues to beat defenders with ball in hand, but makes errors misses about the same in defence.
JB not the worst of the backline for sure, had some positives and negatives, did get the try assist with a kick pass, but last two performances at 12 would have me keeping him there.
Mark Talea looks like a right winger at this level and will help if he gets more outings.
TJP looks rejuvenated and great impact from the bench, would like to see that version of TJP again for impact.
Seriously agree with one comment above, how does Perofeta get one minute? BB was not great at 10 today, probably also not helped by FC, if we are looking for supposed back ups, we need to give people "who have not failed frequently like FC and DH" opportunities to perform again. One minute does not help.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Foster played JB all the time from wing and fullback!
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I don't know who this Cameron McMillan is but we watched different games
Player ratings: The best and worst from the All Blacks' comeback win
How the All Blacks performed in their 31-23 comeback win over Scotland in Murrayfield.
his rankings included
ALB Clarke Laulala Christie DH Whitelock SB Ioane 6
Ardie Samisoni 7
Bower 4 -
@bayimports said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
I get that to. I was only using DH as an example as he seems to be the one currently in that backup spot. The arguments are that we should play JB/RI every game for as long as possible.
Given that both will have decent workloads in Super I'm not convinced that we need to overload them with minutes however the 2023 schedule isn't known yet and is a complete balls up due to the FIFA stadia use requirements. (No games on any stadia used by FIFA for 4 weeks before their first game). At the moment there will be no EP games for the ABs and FBS is the only likely 'usual' place available once FIFA have finished there early August. We will end up at Mt Smart.
Fot that reson I won't think too far ahead on this strategy. -
"Rugby: All Blacks coach Ian Foster impressed with ‘signs of growth’ in comeback win over Scotland"
No problems here. Nothing to see.
“You train for scenarios like this. It’s a test win we’re very proud of. “If you go back 12 months to the last two tests of the year, to where we tripped up in the north, both those tests we were in contention at the start of the last quarter but perhaps [we] didn’t show the composure that we showed today. “That shows some good signs of growth. And that’s with a few guys who were getting opportunities, particularly the likes of Mark Telea playing his first test in that sort of environment with that pressure he’ll be really proud of what he did. “We made a few changes earlier because we felt we needed to change the pictures. We felt Scotland had a roll on and we had to try a couple of different things. The likes of Rieko was a lot more direct and forceful with his carries in the midfield. Codie was outstanding. And TJ for his first test of the year and being out of the squad that was as good as he’s played for us in a long time. We’re delighted with that.”regards:
We felt Scotland had a roll on-yes they were in the lead for awhile there, Ian. I'm so glad I only read this postmatch interview and didn't see it.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Foster played JB all the time from wing and fullback!
Except when his brother came on. The guy that currently has the 10/15 cover slot.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Foster played JB all the time from wing and fullback!
Except when his brother came on. The guy that currently has the 10/15 cover slot.
What I mean was Foster didn't rest JB pre- (JB at 12).
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good game! Scotland gave it shit, we tried to give it to them, but the finish was superb. What cost the scots was either they didn't try enough, or weren't good enough to take full toll through that middle 50-odd minutes where we just fell apart. They needed to do more than pressure us and wait for the inevitable mistake. Well, that, 14 very early points, and our 7 & 8.
In the end the bench came on, we wrestled back control, and finished all over them. That's pretty pleasing stuff to be honest.
Based purely on this game
The tight 5 were very good under a lot of pressure.
DP put in the best game from an AB7 in years and was the best player on the park
Closely followed by A Savea, who is having quite the tour.It gets ugly after that
A Ioane sucked. Bench player at best, and even then. He's had chance after chance and never grabs it. May just not be a test player.
Christie was busy but so inaccurate.
BBarrett is a fucking shit 10, and has been for a long time. That was a terrible performance. I actually yelled out loud when we hadn't had the ball for ages, but he kept kicking it away with attempted miracles every phase. Build some pressure you fucking dipshit!!! If he has to start at 10 we are fucked.
David havili fucking sucked. His two first touches were a crossfield kick that went backwards, and an intercept. Did nothing from there
ALB fucking sucked. Well, until DH went off, and he moved to 12, where he suddenly remembered how to run straight and make an impact.
Telea did his ongoing chances no harm, especially because
Clarke sucked. Yes he had shit thrown his way, or kicked his way, but there are so many lapses during a game. He's rocks and diamonds.
JBarrett sucked. He's actually a very average fullback. And for all the chat of his "massive boot" we lost every kicking duel we entered last night.Discipline was appalling. The one that really fucked me off was the scrum penalty right on half time. Everyone knew that ball was never going in the scrum except our idiotic front row. Time and time again the let the Scots game them. We had a thousand penalties blown on us, and at no point did i think anything was harsh. Just dumb stuff from players who should know better.
But the bench can be happy with their work. The props definitely added something. The Cody Taylor redemption arc continues. TJ fucking Perenara came on and provided teh direction we had lacked, RIoane suddenly threatened, and provided the try. Oh yeah, and they even let poor old Stephen kick the ball out twice.
That last 20 was pretty fucking great to be honest, and they blew the Scots away. good win.
Now lets actually learn a lesson and jettison some of the dead wood.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
RIoane suddenly threatened
A bit unfair, I thought he made almost immediate impact?!
Agree with most of the rest. But JB still kicked better than BB. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
RIoane suddenly threatened
A bit unfair, I thought he made almost immediate impact?!
that's what i meant, for the first time in the game we had a midfielder that could actually do something positive.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Foster played JB all the time from wing and fullback!
Except when his brother came on. The guy that currently has the 10/15 cover slot.
What I mean was Foster didn't rest JB pre- (JB at 12).
In a non RWC year when we had to fix other areas of concern? I think that it is well known that this year didn't exactly go to plan. At the start of the year I'd say that Perofeta was probably lined up to get some time.
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Just finished watching the match. Did my best to watch it on my phone at my son's athletic meet but was too frustrating so I binned it. ... A few points I think worth making.
I see a lot of criticism on this thread of the wingers, namely Clarke. I'm not sure what you expect, as this was easily the worst 10 / midfield combination I think I've seen at All Black level. Barrett had I think the worst game I've seen him play, ALB was WAY off the pace & Havili didn't do jack shit either (nifty pass to the Graham aside).
Papali'i was awesome. As was Ardie. This should be the first 2 names on the team sheet. Sorry Sam (C) but your time is up. Papali'i just offers so much more now. Yes, I'm sure you are an inspiring leader and I have doubt about the level you get stuck in, but Dalton is simply better. Happens to everybody sorry fella.
Akira Ioane was handy as well. Actually, I don't have too much criticism of the forwards. On the whole I thought they did ok. On the line defence was superb & I don't remember too much going wrong with the scrum or line out. I was fast forwarding the gaps in play though, so I might have missed something.
Bench had huge impact. Rieko Ioane / Perenara changed the game in our favour.
Best Scottish backline I think I've ever seen. They have some proper war horses up front too so it's not surprise they gave us a really good rattle. Russell, Hogg, VDM, Graham all played significantly better than their opposite numbers. We did really well to win, in my view.
Mehrtens can fuck off back to Australia with his commentary. It's like Marshall part 2. Must call doubt on AB calls, who cares about the rules.
Looked like a fun day out at Murrayfield. Although seeing Doddie Weir was soul destroying. Hate that stuff. Hate it.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Just finished watching the match. Did my best to watch it on my phone at my son's athletic meet but was too frustrating so I binned it. ... A few points I think worth making.
I see a lot of criticism on this thread of the wingers, namely Clarke. I'm not sure what you expect, as this was easily the worst 10 / midfield combination I think I've seen at All Black level. Barrett had I think the worst game I've seen him play, ALB was WAY off the pace & Havili didn't do jack shit either (nifty pass to the Graham aside).
Papali'i was awesome. As was Ardie. This should be the first 2 names on the team sheet. Sorry Sam (C) but your time is up. Papali'i just offers so much more now. Yes, I'm sure you are an inspiring leader and I have doubt about the level you get stuck in, but Dalton is simply better. Happens to everybody sorry fella.
Akira Ioane was handy as well. Actually, I don't have too much criticism of the forwards. On the whole I thought they did ok. On the line defence was superb & I don't remember too much going wrong with the scrum or line out. I was fast forwarding the gaps in play though, so I might have missed something.
Bench had huge impact. Rieko Ioane / Perenara changed the game in our favour.
Best Scottish backline I think I've ever seen. They have some proper war horses up front too so it's not surprise they gave us a really good rattle. Russell, Hogg, VDM, Graham all played significantly better than their opposite numbers. We did really well to win, in my view.
Mehrtens can fuck off back to Australia with his commentary. It's like Marshall part 2. Must call doubt on AB calls, who cares about the rules.
Looked like a fun day out at Murrayfield. Although seeing Doddie Weir was soul destroying. Hate that stuff. Hate it.
Really upsetting. To see a formerly strapping lock in that condition is heartbreaking.
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@bayimports said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.I agree with what you are saying however I have now seen enough of DH to say he shouldn't even be in the equation. Tried and failed enough. If we need a back-up combo then ALB with little rugby in his legs looked better. Work on him as the back up. DH can go prepare for the Crusaders
If Havilii is gonna play and given his lack of attacking ooomf compared to others he’d better be workmanlike and mistake free at the very least. That pass to Graham may as well have been gift wrapped. Awful stuff.
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@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
