So what did we learn from Bled2?
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@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.
This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.
I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is people that are genuine threats with ball in hand, otherwise we'll find it hard to break down organised defenses. I think the balance of the backline we ran out was perfect, the biggest question mark was how Mo'unga and Beauden would go together, and it's clear they've done a lot of work there as this time around they really complimented each other.
I really, really hope we give this backline as much gametime as possible leading up to the RWC. It's so important that they are allowed to grow as a unit over a number of tests. I think other teams would be extremely weary of having to defend multiple play makers with Rieko, Clarke and Jordan running off them.
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@broughie said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.
Kahui was so good. Very unlucky with injuries and Smith and Nonu having a mortgage on the midfield spots. Could really smash guys over with the best of them.
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@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.
At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.
We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.
But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?
On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.
Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.
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@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is
Less critical fans?
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@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is
Less critical fans?
Hey I've been very measured in my analysis of Mo'unga, there were a couple of errors he made I could have gone to town on him over
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@Chris-B I'm very sympathetic to your views on Jordie at the back, I was of the same view about moving him to 12, but I think he can be more influential there for the ABs where we can better utilise his strength with ball in hand and hard hitting defense. That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.
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I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.
For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.
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@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.
The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.
But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet
The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building
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@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.
For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.
Has Jordie ever gotten a red card at test level? Or even at super level? Or are you mixing him up with a hot headed Crusader?
I get what you're saying though, but if we're gonna have a chance at this RWC we need to build some very solid combinations so that when push comes to shove we can rely on those combinations to get us through. We don't have much time to do that now. Constantly chopping and changing is not a luxary we have anymore, we'll just put ourselves under pressure and it leads to disjointed performances.
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Jordie is and always has been a natural fit at 12. At 15 he is always going to be a little bit slow and lacks a bit of evasiveness to be a long term keeper. At some point he'll probably cop a card for leading with elbows and forearms hitting it up, but hey.
Rieko Ioane frequently does some pretty amazing stuff - particularly in defence - but blows about one try per game. And in close games we don't get a whole lot of opportunities to blow. Clarke has the same problem: can't find support, can't keep movements going. Of course he's a bit of a defensive liability at present too, so that's not great. Both those guys in one backline at the moment means you're going to leave points out there.
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him? -
@Duluth said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.
The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.
But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet
The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building
Yeah, that's been a real problem this year. We've also not had any tests against tier 2 nations to give people time in the black jumper, going straight into tests against a settled Irish team was tough. Perofeta was outstanding in SR and hadn't been sighted since which is a problem.
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Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.
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@reprobate said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?
Yes.
Long answer: yes - brings a point of difference. ALB was amazing, but needs to re-establish himself after hte injuries. He's the long term guy, it's becoming the Ardie at 7 argument again; whatever you think of him as an 8, that's his position, that's where he's playing. 7 cover at best.
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@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.
Yeah that sprung to mind too. Red or yellow I can't remember.
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@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
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@No-Quarter A bit of devil's advocate, as well.
Right now, my maths says we don't win RWC2023 - we're a one-in-ten chance, so we may need to spin the bottle.
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@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.
Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.
you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.
That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.
Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.
