So what did we learn from Bled2?
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@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Kirwan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.
At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.
We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.
But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?
On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.
Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.
I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.
Question answered. JB has to play the bigger games at 12
It’s only the Aussies….
Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.
I can't be sure but I don't remember DH carving up Fiji the way that JB carved up an albeit poor Aussie side
Poor Aussie side that was one decision away from beating us.
DH has had good games, just nothing like what JB has delivered. Bledisloe games are certainly at a standard where we can see if a player is up to it.
It would be mad to change him now, he's earned another shot.
100% Jordie should be given more chances there. Not disputing that at all. Just reminding people that a few got very excited about DH on the back of one game.
Sure, but more than Crusader fans are excited about Jordie's efforts last weekend!
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@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@nostrildamus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Crazy-Horse said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Yeah and it's only one game. Last year I am pretty sure people were saying similar things about DH following a game against Fiji.
To be fair I don't recall DH ever having those stats.
I wasn't talking about stats. I was talking about people saying things along the lines of "We have found our 12."
Well now people have JB at 12 and DH at 12 to compare and to my eye and according to those stats DH never put in such a dominant performance even against weaker sides.
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@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
JB went up the guts, power rugby style. None of the helter skelter shit that characterised our early season play. Loved it
I think he’s bulked up a bit too. For a guy that started sub 100kg and was nicknamed “Udon” he certainly played the part of the big bruising midfielder extremely well.
At times he looked like a young Jamie Roberts except with skills.
Not going to let that one go ... Jamie Roberts was an exceptional player.
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@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.
And it's only one Test he's played at 12. You can bet your bottom dollar opposition teams will be looking at the videos of the game to spot and exploit any weaknesses.
Be good to see how he goes against NH teams before he's crowned the new Nonu.
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@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
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@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@reprobate said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?
Yes.
Long answer: yes - brings a point of difference. ALB was amazing, but needs to re-establish himself after hte injuries. He's the long term guy, it's becoming the Ardie at 7 argument again; whatever you think of him as an 8, that's his position, that's where he's playing. 7 cover at best.
And all of a sudden we have some good options at 12/13. Just a pity we don't have enough Test matches to decide on the best combinations.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
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@MN5 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
At times he looked like a young Jamie Roberts except with skills.
If he had 3/4 of the skills of Jamie Roberts I'd be happy - outstanding player.
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@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.
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Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.
Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.
Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.
I am not as down on Havili as many others as I think we've seen enough of him to suggest future there. He's had a couple of misreads which have cost, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself.
Agree with you on bench option. He can cover a few outside back positions as well.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.
But if opposition teams continue to run through our back line the way Ireland did, it won't matter who is taking the bombs. Not to mention the fact that we barely got any penetration when we had the ball. Besides, both BB and Caleb have shown ability in this regard
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@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.
But if opposition teams continue to run through our back line the way Ireland did, it won't matter who is taking the bombs. Not to mention the fact that we barely got any penetration when we had the ball. Besides, both BB and Caleb have shown ability in this regard
Depends on how Foster & co. see the whole backline as one unit and how much store they put in known quantities and combinations, I guess. Think they'll want to give him way more time at 12 until RWC2023 though.
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@MajorRage said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.
Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.
I am not as down on Havili as many others as I think we've seen enough of him to suggest future there. He's had a couple of misreads which have cost, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself.
Not the misreads that worry me - it's the size and the lack of physicality at times. He can get get bounced backwards offensively, and defensively struggles to put in dominant hits. Having smaller passive defenders can be covered if there are other attributes brought to the table, but playing outside Smith and Mo'unga gets exposed at the top level.
Above all, whether he's the right guy or not, at least the coaches picked one and stuck with them. I'm dying in my own ditch that Laumape could have been our guy there, but he plateaued, got a chip on his shoulder and then left the room.
Also, Havili started brilliantly at 12, albeit against weaker sides. He's been more solid this year, but still not a patch on JB
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Was pretty impressed with Jordie on Saturday, and it's interesting isn't it, there seems no doubt he should be starting, it's just where. While I was mightily impressed with his game, I would be keen to see more before I annoint him as the second coming, but if he can repeat that (and was pretty good week before filling in there) a couple of times I will be very happy. I like the triple threat of passing, kicking and running, and with power (where he has it over Havili), and like he can be dominant in defence.
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@Chris-B Jeez I'd put money down on 10% . We now have a front row remember; and a 12
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@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Chris-B Jeez I'd put money down on 10% . We now have a front row remember; and a 12
second favourites behind France...
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@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.
But if opposition teams continue to run through our back line the way Ireland did, it won't matter who is taking the bombs. Not to mention the fact that we barely got any penetration when we had the ball. Besides, both BB and Caleb have shown ability in this regard
I didn’t think our backline defence per se was that bad other than Beaudie and Jordie missing a few tackles in tests 2 and 3. It was more our defensive line when we found ourselves with tight forwards in vulnerable positions wider of the ruck. Ireland exploited that very well.
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@chimoaus Yep time is getting short.
I think we nail the colours to the mast .A Smith - Mo - JB - Ioane - WJ - BB - One other
de Groot - Sami - Lomax - RetLock - Retlock - Savea - Paps - one other
I like the look of that.
Mo kicks
JB occasional howitzer
Captain, Sam the Taller
