All Black backline
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shovel shit = passing it outside regardless of if the receiver is in a worse position, ie hospital pass, see BB
Distribution = variety of passes (short/long/skip/second line) putting people in space / gaps
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Black backline:
shovel shit = passing it outside regardless of if the receiver is in a worse position, ie hospital pass, see BB
Distribution = variety of passes (short/long/skip/second line) putting people in space / gaps
right.
so the 13 is judged almost exclusively in their short/long/skip/2nd line passing and his ability to put people in to space/gaps? Because all i fucking hear about R Ioane is "his distribution"
completely ignoring the rest of the shape, and what he has happening in front and outside of him (and what he has been served up from 10/12)
It's a bullshit argument to try and find a reason to rissole a bloke, made more bullshit by any potential replacements having even worse flaws (or can't get on the field).
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@mariner4life i was only a front rower but my feeling was things like distribution or playmaking became less important the further down the backline, you go from creating to finishing. so a 13 might need to make the final pass to the wing or back to a cheeky 9 on his shoulder but generally im looking for him to break the line with ball in hand or receiving from 12 the that has just broken the line
ie im less worried about RI's distribution and more worried about our 10 and 12 's distribution...hell even jordie from the back isn't bringing it forward and creating as much as i would like
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As far as i can see (and this is qualified by the fact i'm definitely a forward guy) our backline looks like poos because
we are wedded to being as flat as fuck. from 10 out
We don't have a game organiser at 10
We don't have an anything at 12
We are wedded to not only being flat, but very wide, meaning our wings are stationed on the touchline.
We don't know how to bring our outside backs in to play.I don't think the personnel are as good as the coaches seem to. And i think our entire formation fucking sucks.
If you gave Ioane, Jordan, Clarke and even Jordie just a little more depth and a little more time, they are going to give defences kittens. But we give them nothing.
SA Game 2 we looked shit hot out wider because of a noticable increase in our starting depth. R Ioane was over the gain line constantly, because he got the ball at pace with a bit more than a microsecond before the defender arrived.Who we pick means far less than where they start each phase from IMO.
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@mariner4life the fact i feel we've seen them try and crash ball with players like havili and bridge says a lot, definitely not aligning what little gameplan we have to the players we have
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Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
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@reprobate said in All Black backline:
all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game
all? gee what a shit player
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@MN5 said in All Black backline:
@Yeahtheboys said in All Black backline:
@nostrildamus I do love watching the world crash and burn
It’s always great to grab the popcorn and sit and watch when someone dares criticise Akira Ioane on here.
Dares? Dude you must be Fozzie fat then, he gets criticised constantly. I wouldn't even skip a beat if I saw someone criticise his eyebrows for being too bushy for an AB.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
For all the talk of Goodhue being too slow, how many times has he actually been skinned on the outside? Ioane on the other hand contributes to loads of defensive misalignments and miscommunications, and that costs territory and tries regularly. He's an excellent tackler, and his speed gets him out of trouble a lot, but he's a big contributor to our poor defensive system. He's also one of the too many players we have who contribute multiple turnovers to the opposition every game. And on attack he blows tries by ignoring support, runs his outsides out of space, and has slow hands.
He's a great runner ball in hand, sensational in fact. Wing.Doesn't really matter how much better Goodhue is anyway though, because he's forever injured.
i couldn't tell you....mainly because i cant remember the last time he players for the AB's...starting to wonder if he's just a myth
Pakeha Jesus.
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@Nepia said in All Black backline:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
For all the talk of Goodhue being too slow, how many times has he actually been skinned on the outside? Ioane on the other hand contributes to loads of defensive misalignments and miscommunications, and that costs territory and tries regularly. He's an excellent tackler, and his speed gets him out of trouble a lot, but he's a big contributor to our poor defensive system. He's also one of the too many players we have who contribute multiple turnovers to the opposition every game. And on attack he blows tries by ignoring support, runs his outsides out of space, and has slow hands.
He's a great runner ball in hand, sensational in fact. Wing.Doesn't really matter how much better Goodhue is anyway though, because he's forever injured.
i couldn't tell you....mainly because i cant remember the last time he players for the AB's...starting to wonder if he's just a myth
Pakeha Jesus.
Elias Jack Goodhue. The Elias is short for CharlieNgatai.
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@Nepia said in All Black backline:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
For all the talk of Goodhue being too slow, how many times has he actually been skinned on the outside? Ioane on the other hand contributes to loads of defensive misalignments and miscommunications, and that costs territory and tries regularly. He's an excellent tackler, and his speed gets him out of trouble a lot, but he's a big contributor to our poor defensive system. He's also one of the too many players we have who contribute multiple turnovers to the opposition every game. And on attack he blows tries by ignoring support, runs his outsides out of space, and has slow hands.
He's a great runner ball in hand, sensational in fact. Wing.Doesn't really matter how much better Goodhue is anyway though, because he's forever injured.
i couldn't tell you....mainly because i cant remember the last time he players for the AB's...starting to wonder if he's just a myth
Pakeha Jesus.
Wasn’t that Ben Smith ?
Aw hang on, no he was Blue Jesus.
Unlike all these others though he actually earnt the title.
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@RoninWC plenty I don’t agree with in your post, but on the issue of just chucking it wide and waiting for x-factor, one of the biggest issues I’ve had with the attack (and it’s not just backline) is that we have created space on a lot of occasions but then once it goes to runners out wide (backs or forwards) we’ve either lost our shape or made errors. It has resulted in a lot of turnover ball.
The flat alignment whether in set piece or phase ball doesn’t suit our players so shouldn’t be persisted with. I’m hoping the team will adjust their attack and Foster and co bite the bullet and select Jordie at 12.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Black backline:
that we have created space on a lot of occasions but then once it goes to runners out wide (backs or forwards) we’ve either lost our shape or made errors. It has resulted in a lot of turnover ball
we also love to clog that space with forwards
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@Steve said in All Black backline:
Justin Marshall reckons Jordie to 12 as he is playing like a 12 anyway, and Jordan to 15 as he was super rugbys best player while playing that position.
Marshall has been reading my posts.
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@Steve said in All Black backline:
Justin Marshall reckons Jordie to 12 as he is playing like a 12 anyway, and Jordan to 15 as he was super rugbys best player while playing that position.
I DO NOT like agreeing with Marshall....really doubting myself now
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@mariner4life This is my entire issue with the POD system. We get cluttered and rely on frontrowers to have the adaptive ballskills too much. If it breaks down it is well behind the gain line and takes our loosies out of the game. I went to Mexteds coaching school a few years back and asked about this because then all NZ teams were doing the 1331. The comment was that the POD system was agreed on because of the seemingly yearly IRB changes to ruck rules to basically negate McCaw. I saw last years Crusaders change it up and Blues did it mid-season. To me for the last couple of years as we have struggled I kind of recall that period during Mains early years when we struggled to match it with the Aussies we went back to ruck and run quick ball with one-off off the 2nd phase. Remember fitzy just taking opposition loosies out of the game and putting us up to the advantage line. Now we just throw it back 20 meters to try do it there? And often turn it over.
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@reddog i only ever watch a game once, so again, qualified opinion
I don't even think we have "pods" more groups of 3 guys standing next to each other. Lots of problems stem from that.
It also results in us having like 12 guys taking up the whole field
I was interested in screen grabs of Irish attacks where the green winger was the only player in 1/3rd of the field (being defended by 3 guys)
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@reprobate said in All Black backline:
Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
The bolded bit - Clarke's try was created by Rieko holding 2 defenders and putting Jordie through the gap. I don't think you realise how much he's developed at 13, he's been leading the way in try assists for the Blues (and probably SR but I'm too lazy to look it up)
The problem with Rieko isn't that he can't do all the things you talk about, it's that he gets the ball and defender at the same because because of our braindead flat & wide formation.
At Ellis Park our backline looked shit hot despite RM and DH having erratic games because we stood deeper and gave players like Rieko a chance to run the ball.
@mariner4life is right when he says it doesn't actually matter who we pick if we continue with that dumb flat formation on attack.
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@mariner4life said in All Black backline:
As far as i can see (and this is qualified by the fact i'm definitely a forward guy) our backline looks like poos because
we are wedded to being as flat as fuck. from 10 out
We don't have a game organiser at 10
We don't have an anything at 12
We are wedded to not only being flat, but very wide, meaning our wings are stationed on the touchline.
We don't know how to bring our outside backs in to play.I don't think the personnel are as good as the coaches seem to. And i think our entire formation fucking sucks.
If you gave Ioane, Jordan, Clarke and even Jordie just a little more depth and a little more time, they are going to give defences kittens. But we give them nothing.
SA Game 2 we looked shit hot out wider because of a noticable increase in our starting depth. R Ioane was over the gain line constantly, because he got the ball at pace with a bit more than a microsecond before the defender arrived.Who we pick means far less than where they start each phase from IMO.
I actually agree with this, but I will also add couple of points that need to ring true for success. Depth only works when you have backs or forwards to run on to it and you also need players to straighten to create gaps.
In most cases we have the players to do this, but often our players run others out of room as you mention later slower forwards clog the gaps. Reiko is a classic example of a guy who can run his winger out of space if you're selective, but I'm not going to criticize him too much here because I have also felt on a lot of those occasions the ball he has received has also not been ideal. Look at where he took the ball from SA 2 versus AR 1. This supports the theory that the problems stem more from 9/10/12.
If you look at the structure introduced last week, when setting for multiple phases we actually created momentum in the first 40 with player makers split both sides or 1/3/3/1 formations ready to use from depth out the back. Did we use it? No. Nada.
Foster was quite clear the players operated with more in eyes up mode, rather than followed strategy. In my mind Schmidt and Foster had plans for a territory game and with the new structure planned and to play from depth at the right end of the field. However we executed poorly again.
There is a clear leadership problem on the field which we have all seen (and it could be as simple as players taking it upon themselves to do something different rather than follow a script to be a savior) , confidence and still just not being good at the basics. Keeping it focused on the backs though, I don't think the captain is making backline decisions which also shows leadership from our 9/10/12 needs to improve as well.
Given the new structure is likely here to stay for (a while at least), I would certainly prefer a 12 that could fit style, but be able to adapt to flat and depth. This also means forwards need to focus on their core duties and clean out consistently, jackal where possible etc
Either way executing any strategy means players needing to follow that on the field
