Worst AB Captain
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@Tim said in Worst AB Captain:
@Kirwan Yes, I've gotten a little too angry tonight. But he should not be anywhere near the ABs. When was the last time he had an adequate game in Super Rugby?
No arguments here.
Dalton should be at seven if they keep Ardie at 8.
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@Kirwan said in Worst AB Captain:
@Tim said in Worst AB Captain:
@Kirwan Yes, I've gotten a little too angry tonight. But he should not be anywhere near the ABs. When was the last time he had an adequate game in Super Rugby?
No arguments here.
Dalton should be at seven if they keep Ardie at 8.
Which they shouldn't.
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@Kirwan said in Worst AB Captain:
@Tim said in Worst AB Captain:
@Kirwan Yes, I've gotten a little too angry tonight. But he should not be anywhere near the ABs. When was the last time he had an adequate game in Super Rugby?
No arguments here.
Dalton should be at seven if they keep Ardie at 8.
My guess is Cody Taylor to 8, Ardie to the bench for impact when hes brought on in the 78th minute, Cane to 6 and Scott Barrett to 7.
Barrett has shown he can play well in lock and 6 so lets give him a go at 7 to take the pressure off the captain.
Taylor will struggle to make it back to starting hooker this year so lets give him a run at 8 because there is no way in hell we will play an 8 at 8.
Cane remains captain
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We've had a number of outstanding leaders as captain of the ABs in the last 35 years: David Kirk, Buck Shelford, Gary Whetton, Sean Fitzpatrick, Anton Oliver, Tana Umaga, Jerry Collins who left us too soon, Richie McCaw, Dan Carter and Kieran Read. I've huge respect for them all.
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I have to say, I find the piling on to Sam Cane a bit distasteful. He’s been a great servant to NZ rugby and has bided his time behind McCaw for many years, maybe his best years. He’s in a shithouse place now and not in great form but also part at a dysfunctional back row.
May not be justifying his captaincy or place atm but does not warrant some of the shit you guys are piling on himself .
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He has been a good servant to New Zealand rugby but has been on the decline for a while and should be replaced. Unfortunately for him, he is in this position because Foster choose him. Foster is so stubborn he will not remove him so his position as worst captain will be cemented. The two are joined at the hip.
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@Tim said in Worst AB Captain:
Hi, I'm Sam Cane, my team has had the worst results for 100 years for two straight years, but I haven't offered to resign. This is because
(a) I'm a terrible captain, and (b) I'm a moron.
I have a responsibility that I am being asked to fulfil. I take that responsibility seriously.
I am fronting up and taking things on the chin to absorb heat from the other players despite the personal toll and abuse.
I don't make excuses or point fingers publicly.
My own form is suffering because of team form.
I am a figurehead for a whole raft of issues.
I am far from a moron. -
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
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@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
Only disagree with “that’s where the issues start”. We aren’t losing games from the openside. We are losing games because we are allowing ourselves to be put under pressure then not coping well with said pressure.
Easiest way to stop teams getting in your face is to turn them around. Why do our 10s not understand this basic concept? Either pin them back and make them play their way out or kick to space with a chase. Put pressure back on them. -
The personal abuse is bs
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@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
Only disagree with “that’s where the issues start”.
To be clear: not referring to 'on the field'. But appointing people into leadership roles who are struggling - Cane, Foster, etc. To me, the sticking with a captain who suffered a potential career ending injury, and who hasn't been the same since is the kind of blind loyalty that keeps cascading.
Samisoni T must have been wondering what the hell he had to do to get Test starts with Cody Taylor playing the way he was. It's all a similar theme I see in business, around people being picked for non-performance reasons, and having little to no accountability for issues on their watch.
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@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
Only disagree with “that’s where the issues start”.
To be clear: not referring to 'on the field'. But appointing people into leadership roles who are struggling - Cane, Foster, etc. To me, the sticking with a captain who suffered a potential career ending injury, and who hasn't been the same since is the kind of blind loyalty that keeps cascading.
Samisoni T must have been wondering what the hell he had to do to get Test starts with Cody Taylor playing the way he was. It's all a similar theme I see in business, around people being picked for non-performance reasons, and having little to no accountability for issues on their watch.
Kind of a far cry from the days when Buck Shelford got dropped because the All Blacks didn’t beat Scotland very convincingly.
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@nzzp
Cane won the Kel Tremaine Trophy in 2020 so he definitely came back fine from his injury. I don't think he's setting the world on fire by any means but he is suffering from being part of a dysfunctional back row / team.He is far from the worst AB Captain. Nor is Taine Randell. What both have in common is being the figurehead of an underperforming team coached by someone who has lost the plot.
The worst high profile AB capt I can remember is Colin Meads. Of course he suffered from having a coach much worse than either Hart or Foster.
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@dogmeat said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp
Cane won the Kel Tremaine Trophy in 2020 so he definitely came back fine from his injury. I don't think he's setting the world on fire by any means but he is suffering from being part of a dysfunctional back row / team.He is far from the worst AB Captain. Nor is Taine Randell. What both have in common is being the figurehead of an underperforming team coached by someone who has lost the plot.
The worst high profile AB capt I can remember is Colin Meads. Of course he suffered from having a coach much worse than either Hart or Foster.
Hart had an obsession with Taine Randell, real teachers pet stuff. It did him no favours at all. I remember an interview where he even excused his power and conditioning ( compared to Andrew Blowers and Michael Jones ) because he’d had a lot on his plate finishing a law degree and didn’t have time to train ? What the fuck ?
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@MN5 Harty played Randell out of position. He had no problem throwing him under the bus either.
Judge Taine's captaincy ability on the 2002 EOYT. Inspirational leadership especially when you consider he was effectively coaching the team as well while Mitchell and Deans got on the piss.
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@dogmeat said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp
Cane won the Kel Tremaine Trophy in 2020 so he definitely came back fine from his injury. I don't think he's setting the world on fire by any means but he is suffering from being part of a dysfunctional back row / team.and a tight 5 that struggle to clean well (on both sides of the ball).
I'm really mixed on Cane; loved his work historically, but struggle to see him making an impact at the moment. He's an absolute warrior, giving it 100%, but something in that team just isn't working.
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@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@dogmeat said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp
Cane won the Kel Tremaine Trophy in 2020 so he definitely came back fine from his injury. I don't think he's setting the world on fire by any means but he is suffering from being part of a dysfunctional back row / team.and a tight 5 that struggle to clean well (on both sides of the ball).
I'm really mixed on Cane; loved his work historically, but struggle to see him making an impact at the moment. He's an absolute warrior, giving it 100%, but something in that team just isn't working.
They are struggling to clean well because our momentum is backwards. By the time we are ahead of the gain line the forwards are on the ground and arrive a little late. We also aren't putting the ball in front of them and they must be wondering where they are going to every time as the backs are doing random shit under pressure.
Some 10 man rugby then rebuild from there wouldn't go astray at the moment. -
@dogmeat said in Worst AB Captain:
@MN5 Harty played Randell out of position. He had no problem throwing him under the bus either.
Judge Taine's captaincy ability on the 2002 EOYT. Inspirational leadership especially when you consider he was effectively coaching the team as well while Mitchell and Deans got on the piss.
Tell me more.
Good point actually, if the fern was around in 1999 it would have melted down with the amount of folk wanting Isitolo Maka at number 8 instead of Taine.
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Cane does not appear to be an effective captain. Neither is he clearly the best in his position.
I would relieve him of the captaincy and give it to Ardie Savea. He strikes me as being the best in his position (no.8) and appears from the outside to be an inspirational leader. He is also the next cab off the rank as when Cane goes off he becomes captain.
I would do that immediately.
I would also bring in Dalton this week to play no 7 and see if that improves our back row balance.
I don't advocate dropping Cane entirely - just give him a week off and reassess.
