Foster, Robertson etc
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The Breakdown panel are basically ripping Robinson and the rest of the board for their lack of clarity over Foster's future, and their incompetence over club rugby, 7s, the BFs, and Silverlake. I don't disagree with them. Foster may not be the man for the job. But the pressure Robinson has put him under with all of his nothing talk, and 3 reviews within 9 months including 2 in a couple of months, the CEO should have the stones to fire him or back him
Board decision, not CEO, he can make recommendations, but that's it
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@Paekakboyz said in Foster:
No further comment till that time. FFS what a waste of time.
edit - Then he throws it to the board.
Robinson confirms that any discussions on Ian Foster's future will include the New Zealand Rugby board. The timing on those discussions is still yet to be determined. “The appointment of the coach is the board's responsibility, management provides insight, we will provide that to them.”Does the board really decide? Is that normal? I thought these sorts of boards are usually advisory?
Or is he deflecting responsibility?
Our Board
Our Board is charged with setting strategy, direction and policy for New Zealand Rugby, and is ultimately responsible for the decisions and actions of NZR Management and Staff.
Our Board is charged with setting strategy, direction and policy for New Zealand Rugby, and is ultimately responsible for the decisions and actions of NZR Management and Staff. Many of the decisions concerning New Zealand's national teams, domestic competitions, financial management and rugby traditions can only be made by a vote of the Board.Oh ok then. Marketing and accounting-they just don't seem replete with coaching//high performance experience?
https://www.nzrugby.co.nz/about-nzr/governance/our-board/ -
Any decision next week other than retention would be extremely poor management. Which is to admit NZRU may do it.
Whatever one thinks about things that performance tells us the changing shed is still on board.
If it were me, I'd ask why it took till second test to click that back to basics was necessary.
And then set target of three wins from four in rest of RC, failing which changes would be made.
That would mean Bledisloe retained, and likely another RC.
Last year's EOYT failures suggest the strategy for touring also needs a rethink, but that can wait.
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The problem as I see it is that he should have been sacked before the RC started.
To be honest he should have been launched after the EOYT.
and then the real elephant in the room is he should have never got the gig in the first place.
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The problem as I see it is that he should have been sacked before the RC started.
To be honest he should have been launched after the EOYT.
and then the real elephant in the room is he should have never got the gig in the first place.
Be that as it may, we have to play the cards as they fall.
So long as Joe Schmidt has large involvement in selection and game plan I can live with the status quo.
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The problem as I see it is that he should have been sacked before the RC started.
Yep, but that ship has sailed and now NZR finds itself in a real mess.
Do they sack him next week and give any new coach a potential changing room problem as the players think they have turned the corner & are obviously behind Foster? Or do they keep him on until the RC or EOYT and then sack him giving any new coach minimal time to prepare for RWC2023?
You'd think NZR have thought this thru but I'm not convinced. Maybe the best way forward is Foster decides or is persuaded to stand down himself and/or take an assistant role. I might think he should be replaced, but he comes across to me as a pretty decent bloke who'd want to do the right thing.
And one thing's for sure, any new coach is going to have a pretty tough time initially as people will expect results. Doubt if that's been thought thru either.
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Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
I don’t think the players views have any significant weight in all this. Unless there is a Brumbies like coup/revolt happening… but this is a national team and no one is bigger than the jersey and all that…
The players are not making the decision. Player reviews are all part of the engagement strategy of the NZRU as an organisation. The way I look at it, the players didn’t have a say in the appointment, so why would their views matter now.
Comments from players do certainly add colour to it all and give journos and us fans plenty to discuss.
The main relevance of the players views at the moment is with respect to how they might feel and then perform if Foster is replaced - if Ardie has Fozzies back 100% then how is he going to feel and perform when Razor takes over
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
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@game_film yeah you'd like to think after the last meeting they supposedly had some strict expectations were put in place, with this very scenario being one.
I'd have thought when they extended his contract last year they would have put KPIs in, and to me, winning home series v Ireland and retatinng Bledisloe would have been absolute musts, finish top 2 in RC is must.
But, based on the fact they are having to pay him out to get rid of him, indicates there were probably no such indicators.
I guess you have to look at his team now, and ask if this is the team he wants now? Would he cut McLeod or any others loose to bolster it and stay in the job himself.
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
True, though my hunch is that Foster is a lot more affable and collaborative than those two. Depends very much on any co-coach though.
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
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@Donsteppa said in Foster:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
True, though my hunch is that Foster is a lot more affable and collaborative than those two. Depends very much on any co-coach though.
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
Bang on. Foster himself has said that the adversity has changed him, that other approaches/ideas have been accepted (I assume from Ryan and Joe)
He clearly hasn't lost the support of the players (which is the biggest red flag and reason to dump a coach) so why not let that evolution continue? You obviously end up with someone who is demonstrably a very good man manager (I would challenge someone else to get through these last weeks with their team in the manner he has - it was very impressive) alongside some good rugby brains and abilities.
I think they all know there is room to keep evolving as well now they are over this massive hurdle. Throwing big changes in there during the last few games was probably thought of internally as looking like panic instead of trust.
I think we are over the Front Row youth debate. Stick there now and move on. The midfield solution is next. Lets see if RTS can get on the field and show us something (his lack of kicking game and positional flexibility probably isn't in his favour though)
I think we will see Grace come back into contention. He didn't time his performances well as far as consistency went but is clearly in that space now.
By not making a decision to move past Foster in the off season, NZR have ended up in a bad situation if they want change. The emotional disruption and mistrust among some players will now be harder to accept. There will be feelings of guilt from players that blame themselves etc. All of that could have been watered down far more easily if it was a case of 'we are re-setting and moving on' with time to do it.There's a lot of people and media dying to have their personal views validated at the moment but the key is to take a step back and look at the consequences and advantages of ditching him right at this moment.
Are we looking at the future situation of lessons being applied or the past mistakes that lead to those lessons.One thing I do know and that is that he has demonstrated that he deserves far better than some of the shit being slung his way. If anything one of his failures has been giving others too much chance to atone for theirs. He has a muppet as a boss and handled the situation with the type of trust among the squad that everyone points to as one of Razor's key strengths.
If the progress doesn't continue (and there will be hiccups) and he is obviously the road block then by all means get him out of the way but I have a feeling that a battle hardened coach and team that have been through adversity may be just what we need to change the mindset of turning up to games with underlying entitlement.
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@Donsteppa said in Foster:
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
Hope so as the speculation and instability isn't helping anyone - least of all the team & the coaches. Need focus on showing progress against Argentina - who will be much tougher opponents than last time we played them.
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Just for a little perspective.
Foster coached the Chiefs with the following results.
In the 2004 Super 12 season, 7 wins from 11 games with 274 points for and 251 against. Placed 4th on the table. The Chiefs lost their semifinal 17-32 to the Brumbies, the eventual champions, at Canberra Stadium.
2005, 5 wins and a draw from 11 games with 272 points for and 250 against. Placed 6th.
2006, 7 wins and a draw from 13 games with 325 points for and 298 against. Placed 7th.
2007, 7 wins and a draw from 13 games with 373 points for and 321 against. Placed 7th.
2008, 7 wins from 13 games with 348 points for and 349 against. Placed 7th.
2009, 9 wins from 13 games with 338 points for and 236 against. Placed 2nd. The Chiefs beat the Hurricanes 14-10 in a home semi-final and then lost 17-61 to the Bulls in the final at Loftus Versfeld Stadium, Pretoria.
2010, 4 wins and a draw from 13 games with 340 points for and 418 against. Placed 10th.
2011, 6 wins and a draw from 18 games with 332 points for and 348 against. Placed 5th in the New Zealand conference and 10th overall.Scott Robertson has won the Super rugby title six times and the NPC title three times.
Prediction:
After "intensive review" and "extensive consultation with all stakeholders" they decide to keep Foster. Foster will say all the right things at all the right times to all the right people. Because one thing he is good at, is keeping his job despite absolute mediocrity.The big cautionary note that I'll add to Ian Foster's role continuing, or not, is this set of results that @Frank has posted.
I am probably blurring in a couple of the late 90's seasons with this too, but my memory of some of those mid table Chiefs finishes with Ian Foster in charge was roughly:
- Poor start to the season
- Eventually reach the point where the semi-finals are all but mathematically out of reach
- Backs to the wall, turn it around with a few late season genuinely impressive performances
- Conclude that that the Chiefs are now on the right track, so...
- Next year will be our year!
- Rinse and repeat
(Also read: NZ Warriors, with step three coinciding with Origin)
That's why I would still be very happy to see a coaching change this week, as a mid-season strong performance/turnaround has history with Ian Foster.
But given:
- Player sentiment
- Handling of the past circa three years by NZR
- Handling of the last four weeks by Mark Robinson
- The number of non-Chiefs fans who won't remember that cycle, and some Chiefs fans not ancient enough to remember that cycle
- And thus those who are now in the media/social media proclaiming that 'Foster can't be sacked after that one-off performance'!
... like @Frank I'm presuming Foster stays. Probably someone else in the support crew gets moved on.
And this thread may well resume life depending on how the Pumas and the Wallabies front.
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I think we are over the Front Row youth debate. Stick there now and move on.
no love for Joe Moody or Ofa? Both could be picks if they get back up to speed.
If required, yes, and maybe as squad backups but tbf Ofa has had how many good performances in black? Endless chances scattered with brainfarts and hot/cold days.
Moody has technical scrum skills but until a sign of revival in Super before being injured he had the impact of wet toilet paper.
Ross, Bower and DeGroot all show the new style of prop we need. -
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@Donsteppa @Frank I understand the concept of past behaviour being an indicator of future but trotting out stats that are 11-17 years old to back up a current change idea is possibly going a bit far isn't it?
My concern is that the pattern is not only past behaviour, i.e. this season with two wins from five.
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It seems like everyone has to fall on their swords except the top guy. His body of work merits firing going back to the Chiefs and through his introduction to the ABs. It’s boring but we have been highlighting our progressive weakness in the forwards for years. He has been in charge for nearly 3 years. They have one good game in which we do the hard graft and some want to get sentimental and throw him a lifeline based on supposed player feelings, a good result and most likely, nothing to do with Foster, Jason Ryan. Yes Robinson and the NZRFU are incompetent but what is his record? Why has it taken him so long to identify that you have to win the game in the forwards and show leadership to make the right changes. He has been dragged to this point by a succession of painful losses and NZ rugby losing our aura and stature. If he had any balls he would resign.
