The Current State of Rugby
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Current State of Rugby:
Just on the initial post I couldn't agree more. I was someone who went to sometimes extreme lengths to watch or even get rugby results when living overseas. Fark I remember the stress of waiting for the live update to refresh. I used to stress about getting home on time to watch Super games on Friday night. I didnt want to miss a game. Every AB loss was like a knife to the heart.
Now I'm starting to not even give a shit. A game that is by its very nature dangerous has been sanitised within an inch of its life. It's almost as stop-start as NFL ffs. The game has been destroyed as a spectacle. Just think, they've had to change red card rules because there are so fůcking many of them now.
They say they play rugby in heaven, well I hope to fůck it isn't this version.
It does make you wonder if the 'old game' is fit for purpose with bigger, faster players.
Watching a game of decent club rugby or an age group/women's game is much more enjoyable and simple.
You could either change the pro laws to suit the players or, as suggested, change some of the laws around subs to pull the pro game back toward 'normality'.
It's the hemisphere difference that puzzles me. Is it a parochial thing? How is it that 'their' game doesn't see the same problems? It's not as if accidents don't happen when you cross an equator. The NH game isn't a 10 man one any more either so the loss of players from the field has a similar effect. Or is it media driven? There was an Irish Times article the other day that made the ABs out to be vicious thugs out to cripple people. -
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
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@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
That has also (supposedly) changed already.
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial ....exactly....a review of the existing laws, anything from after this exercise as this was all about what was going to happen
My comment was in reply to this statement..
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
1 - The law book is a mess, poorly written - ambiguous, contradictory, vague - and should be re-written from the ground up even if they don't change any laws (and we all agree they need to change some of them).
I was pointing out that exactly this happened only a few years back. Almost 50% of text was cut out. Descriptions replaced with diagrams etc
I'm not arguing any quality of laws just that stating that it is a mess and poorly written appears based on the law bokk prior to this re-write.
eg: there is no deliberate knock-on. It clearly, and unambiguously, states that a player cannot intentionally knock the ball forward. I seem to remember that the old law book firstly defined a 'knock-on' then set laws around that definition.
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial ....exactly....a review of the existing laws, anything from after this exercise as this was all about what was going to happen
My comment was in reply to this statement..
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
1 - The law book is a mess, poorly written - ambiguous, contradictory, vague - and should be re-written from the ground up even if they don't change any laws (and we all agree they need to change some of them).
I was pointing out that exactly this happened only a few years back. Almost 50% of text was cut out. Descriptions replaced with diagrams etc
I'm not arguing any quality of laws just that stating that it is a mess and poorly written appears based on the law bokk prior to this re-write.
eg: there is no deliberate knock-on. It clearly, and unambiguously, states that a player cannot intentionally knock the ball forward. I seem to remember that the old law book firstly defined a 'knock-on' then set laws around that definition.
No, I'm talking about the current 2022 version, and the one preceding it. Maybe it was even worse before, but if it's been recently rewritten then they did not do a good job of it.
The deliberate knock on is a good example. The law book defines what a knock on is. Then it defines the sanction for an intentional knock on. Then it specifies what doesn't count as intentional knock on. But it doesn't actually define what an "intentional knock on" is.
So we're left to guess - is it any knock on that is not covered by the "not an intentional knock on" section? Is it a literal interpretation i.e the ref has to decide what was in the player's mind?
Convention seems to be a bit of both - they talk about whether it was a "realistic" attempt (this is from the "not an intentional knock on" definition) but the whole thing relies on implication and interpretation. Just write the law properly FFS, it shouldn't be this difficult.
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@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
Someone on Gwlad took a stopwatch to the first half of the Wales-Boks test. The half lasted 48:30. The ball was in play 15:30.
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@gibbon-rib That's disgraceful. We may as well let halfbacks throw the ball forward and play NFL.
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@Winger said in The Current State of Rugby:
but its different now. For one every big game is on TV. Professional rugby has meant needing a diff set of rules and has changed the game. More sport options in nz. Internet means we can all watch our fill of rugby
Add in boring super rugby with one team always winning and poor decisions like expansion .
I agree with the game being on tv is what is changing it ,or really the nomey is, but I not convinced it for the better. I don't think one team winning super rugby is what makes it boring, that is only probably for non Crusaders supporters (rugby wasn't boring when Auckland kept winning in 80s, , what is stuffing it up is what is supporting it---money! I know the big thing is that many people get their sport fix on tv etc, and don't go to sports, but it's making the game less atractive. Watch club games etc especially in smaller places the game is still great to watch, and is played and watched for the love of the game! Hell I just finished watching a college game on tv, no TMO or anything, just good rugby to watch.
I say if we starting to get rusted old buggers like me struggling, I think it is getting to be problem -
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
Someone on Gwlad took a stopwatch to the first half of the Wales-Boks test. The half lasted 48:30. The ball was in play 15:30.
There's no doubt the game is far more stop start than league now. At a time when the NRL is actually trying to speed the game up. I love rugby, but for a neutral or uneducated observer league has a superior product right now. There is just far too much time taken up by shit other than actually playing rugby
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@Dan54 said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Winger said in The Current State of Rugby:
but its different now. For one every big game is on TV. Professional rugby has meant needing a diff set of rules and has changed the game. More sport options in nz. Internet means we can all watch our fill of rugby
Add in boring super rugby with one team always winning and poor decisions like expansion .
I agree with the game being on tv is what is changing it ,or really the nomey is, but I not convinced it for the better. I don't think one team winning super rugby is what makes it boring, that is only probably for non Crusaders supporters (rugby wasn't boring when Auckland kept winning in 80s, , what is stuffing it up is what is supporting it---money! I know the big thing is that many people get their sport fix on tv etc, and don't go to sports, but it's making the game less atractive. Watch club games etc especially in smaller places the game is still great to watch, and is played and watched for the love of the game! Hell I just finished watching a college game on tv, no TMO or anything, just good rugby to watch.
one small comment, thats because that is one decade...we're now in our 3rd decade of the Crusaders winning, even during their dark days of blackadder they generally made finals
add to that auckland in the NPC was one of 10's of unions, so other teams had little rivalries with the teams "around them"...we've distilled top level rugby down to these five teams so the dominance is more complete
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
Someone on Gwlad took a stopwatch to the first half of the Wales-Boks test. The half lasted 48:30. The ball was in play 15:30.
There's no doubt the game is far more stop start than league now. At a time when the NRL is actually trying to speed the game up. I love rugby, but for a neutral or uneducated observer league has a superior product right now. There is just far too much time taken up by shit other than actually playing rugby
speed....thats actually where i think we go wrong...slow and continuous is fine, it doesn't need to be end to end stuff, focusing on speed is giving in to the idea there are lots of breaks, IMO, we had a long break so we need to jam all the rugby we missed into the next 30 sec! hurry!
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@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Dan54 said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Winger said in The Current State of Rugby:
but its different now. For one every big game is on TV. Professional rugby has meant needing a diff set of rules and has changed the game. More sport options in nz. Internet means we can all watch our fill of rugby
Add in boring super rugby with one team always winning and poor decisions like expansion .
I agree with the game being on tv is what is changing it ,or really the nomey is, but I not convinced it for the better. I don't think one team winning super rugby is what makes it boring, that is only probably for non Crusaders supporters (rugby wasn't boring when Auckland kept winning in 80s, , what is stuffing it up is what is supporting it---money! I know the big thing is that many people get their sport fix on tv etc, and don't go to sports, but it's making the game less atractive. Watch club games etc especially in smaller places the game is still great to watch, and is played and watched for the love of the game! Hell I just finished watching a college game on tv, no TMO or anything, just good rugby to watch.
one small comment, thats because that is one decade...we're now in our 3rd decade of the Crusaders winning, even during their dark days of blackadder they generally made finals
add to that auckland in the NPC was one of 10's of unions, so other teams had little rivalries with the teams "around them"...we've distilled top level rugby down to these five teams so the dominance is more complete
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
Someone on Gwlad took a stopwatch to the first half of the Wales-Boks test. The half lasted 48:30. The ball was in play 15:30.
There's no doubt the game is far more stop start than league now. At a time when the NRL is actually trying to speed the game up. I love rugby, but for a neutral or uneducated observer league has a superior product right now. There is just far too much time taken up by shit other than actually playing rugby
speed....thats actually where i think we go wrong...slow and continuous is fine, it doesn't need to be end to end stuff, focusing on speed is giving in to the idea there are lots of breaks, IMO, we had a long break so we need to jam all the rugby we missed into the next 30 sec! hurry!
Pace of play, as in how many stoppages are there. Right now a shitload!
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The new rule in NPC will be interesting around water breaks, they are limited to one per half.
cutting the amount of props lying on the ground getting a rest is a great idea,
I would go as far as completely eliminating the TMO apart from try scoring actions one phase max. TMO is a huge blight on the game atm and makes everything look bad in slowmo.
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@muddyriver literally should check grounding, the ref and AR's should be in a position to see everything else, anything they missed gets picked up after the game
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@muddyriver said in The Current State of Rugby:
The new rule in NPC will be interesting around water breaks, they are limited to one per half.
cutting the amount of props lying on the ground getting a rest is a great idea,
I would go as far as completely eliminating the TMO apart from try scoring actions one phase max. TMO is a huge blight on the game atm and makes everything look bad in slowmo.
I think the idea that anyone who stays down has to leave the field until at least the next stoppage is a good idea. Or maybe they have to leave for a certain time to allow for a medical check. This would stop the fakers. Unfortunately with TMO, now it is out of the box it is hard to put it back. And in rugby, like many other fast contact sports, context seems to be something no one considers but definitely should
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@Crazy-Horse said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@dogmeat i feel the real rugby nerds enjoy seeing every mistake from player or ref picked up and punished/corrected....where as the casual fan or those of us that forget about most mistake pretty quickly (unless i read about them on here) enjoy rugby much less
I think people want to see the other team punished. If their team benefits from cards and penalties they often don't give a shit and can be quite supportive of the sanctions. This seems to be the case in all the Rugby I watch (Super and ABs).
This attitude seems to have flowed onto the pitch as well. One thing I have noticed in both tests is the Irish in amongst their talking to the ref seem to be angling very hard for an AB player to leave the field whenever there's an "incident" or a series of penalties in a row. I get that playing a man up is a real advantage, but there's something a bit off in my view to have what appears to be a strategy to pressure the ref to give you that advantage whenever possible.
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm convinced the simple solution to everything is to have the ball in play more. Don't stop because someone wants to tie up a shoelace or put in a contact lens. Don't get to the lineout quickly enough? Short arm penalty. Fuck around at scrum time, short arm penalty. Water is for half time.
Someone on Gwlad took a stopwatch to the first half of the Wales-Boks test. The half lasted 48:30. The ball was in play 15:30.
There's no doubt the game is far more stop start than league now. At a time when the NRL is actually trying to speed the game up. I love rugby, but for a neutral or uneducated observer league has a superior product right now. There is just far too much time taken up by shit other than actually playing rugby
I think League has gone to the opposite extreme and is maybe letting too much stuff go. There wouldn't be a player left on the field with the ridiculous level of union scrutiny.
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@bayimports I agree. I look at league and why we don’t see more intercept attempts when there are less players on the field? Part of it is attacking/defensive pattens, but I think ultimately it is about it being such a low percentage play that possession is up for grabs. And in league, possession is king.
It used to be in rugby but the common trend in todays game (and for the last number of years) less possession does not matter.
I like a harsher sanction than just a scrum for a knock on, but specific circumstances must dictate whether a card is warranted rather than a more blanket YC approach that has crept in. Much like a negative play at the breakdown is a penalty unless the specific circumstance warrants a card.
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@junior said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crazy-Horse said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@dogmeat i feel the real rugby nerds enjoy seeing every mistake from player or ref picked up and punished/corrected....where as the casual fan or those of us that forget about most mistake pretty quickly (unless i read about them on here) enjoy rugby much less
I think people want to see the other team punished. If their team benefits from cards and penalties they often don't give a shit and can be quite supportive of the sanctions. This seems to be the case in all the Rugby I watch (Super and ABs).
This attitude seems to have flowed onto the pitch as well. One thing I have noticed in both tests is the Irish in amongst their talking to the ref seem to be angling very hard for an AB player to leave the field whenever there's an "incident" or a series of penalties in a row. I get that playing a man up is a real advantage, but there's something a bit off in my view to have what appears to be a strategy to pressure the ref to give you that advantage whenever possible.
It's the thing I hate most about football. The way the players stand around and pressure the ref. That and simulation
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Current State of Rugby:
Just on the initial post I couldn't agree more. I was someone who went to sometimes extreme lengths to watch or even get rugby results when living overseas. Fark I remember the stress of waiting for the live update to refresh. I used to stress about getting home on time to watch Super games on Friday night. I didnt want to miss a game. Every AB loss was like a knife to the heart.
Now I'm starting to not even give a shit. A game that is by its very nature dangerous has been sanitised within an inch of its life. It's almost as stop-start as NFL ffs. The game has been destroyed as a spectacle. Just think, they've had to change red card rules because there are so fůcking many of them now.
They say they play rugby in heaven, well I hope to fůck it isn't this version.
It does make you wonder if the 'old game' is fit for purpose with bigger, faster players.
Watching a game of decent club rugby or an age group/women's game is much more enjoyable and simple.
You could either change the pro laws to suit the players or, as suggested, change some of the laws around subs to pull the pro game back toward 'normality'.
It's the hemisphere difference that puzzles me. Is it a parochial thing? How is it that 'their' game doesn't see the same problems? It's not as if accidents don't happen when you cross an equator. The NH game isn't a 10 man one any more either so the loss of players from the field has a similar effect. Or is it media driven? There was an Irish Times article the other day that made the ABs out to be vicious thugs out to cripple people.Maybe the issue is how people in each hemisphere see the game and what they think it should be.
Speaking in gross generalisations, sports in the NH tends to be more tribal, based more on tradition, and more of a "village against village / town against town" game. In that sense, it's less about entertainment and more about tribal pride. I think that, in the NH, a large part of the entertainment comes from the "drama" of what happens on and off the field. All of the things we are complaining about create drama.
We obviously have some of the above in the SH, but it has been massively diluted in recent times. It seems to me that, in the SH, we derive more of our enjoyment and entertainment from the sport from the skills on display. Hence, cards and all that we complain about here are things that detract from that.
You can see these different attitudes play out in how we talk about matches here - we will all spend way too much time talking about "how" the ABs have played even after a win. Imagine if we beat Ireland 23-12 despite playing most of the match a man up like in Dunedin - we'd all be having massive pile on about how poorly the team played despite having that advantage.
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I think @junior is right, that is a big part of it. In the UK if you were to say that "new rules are being introduced to make the game more entertaining / attractive" this would almost universally be understood to be a criticism rather than a compliment. It's not as though people there are opposed to entertaining or attractive sport, but there is a level of cynicism that is generally not matched here in the SH (it would be assumed that such changes are probably against the spirit and traditions of the game and aimed at armchair viewers who don't understand the sport).
