The Current State of Rugby
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@Damo only way to remove the ambiguity is maybe alter the rule to say you cannot attempt to catch the oppositions pass.
I mean if you get passed the ball by your team mate, and you fumble the catch, it travels forward and you regather, as long as it doesnt touch another player, it is considered play on, or should these also be ruled knock ons? Or is there another interpretation for these? Genuine question, not needling.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rancid-Schnitzel we had one of our boys "Blue carded" on the weekend, the physio ran him through all the tests and signed him off before our game had even ended....but he still needs to go see a proper doc, who recommended an MRI etc...so hes out for at least a week and possible 2 even if nothing is wrong....obviously more if there is
I couldn't argue with the precautions...and i guess the real difference is if the doc tells him its serious and he shouldn't play again....then he'll coach...or manage like i had too last year....a lot seems to be keeping these guys playing....because its their job
I don't have a problem with those protocols. That's rugby unfortunately.
Neither do I.
I once abandoned a game because I had observed a player take a vicious blow to the head and I directly told the coach he wasn't to come back on. Then he did come back on and the physio told me it was fine because she had checked him.
We got into a Mexican standoff and I just decided I couldn't be bothered arguing with a physio (who may or may not have medical training about concussions) and I called it off. That was before the days of Blue cards.
Score was one sided so no real impact on anyone. There was also only about 5 minutes to go.
The school got a real rarking from the union.
From memory it wasn't helped by fact only a week or so earlier a girl in Canada had died during a school girl game after taking 2 blows to the head in a few days apart.
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@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo only way to remove the ambiguity is maybe alter the rule to say you cannot attempt to catch the oppositions pass.
I mean if you get passed the ball by your team mate, and you fumble the catch, it travels forward and you regather, as long as it doesnt touch another player, it is considered play on, or should these also be ruled knock ons? Or is there another interpretation for these? Genuine question, not needling.
Funnily enough that used to be the rule. If you tried to catch a pass, it went forward and then you caught it before it hit the ground it was a knock on. I don't advocate going back to that.
I would make 3 points though.
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it needs to be an actual attempt to catch it, not an attempt to knock it forward and catch it later. That should be always be at least a knock on.
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if you try to catch the ball, it goes forward and then instead of catching it you knock it backwards before it hits the ground, technically by the book that is a knock on. You must regather it not to be a knock on. It's never refereed that way though and I am OK with that.
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There is now a law that if you are juggling the ball trying to bring it under control you are deemed in possession and can be tackled. That is a good law.
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@Damo on 1, that is where we disagree as for me, I will only attempt to knock it up/back, but if I get it wrong, YC.
Too many cards seem to hinge on split second decisions, reactions or timing in a game played at pace.
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@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical. -
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
Card only comes in due to being cynical.
most other cynical acts result in just a penalty? Why, IMO because they are usually at rucks, mauls, for off side and are more often than not, just called a penalty, maybe they get a warning, probably not, TMO doesnt often involve in them unless 'foul play'
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical.Yes the offense is a PK.
The card comes in when it's considered a professional foul. That has been considered in the case of deliberate knockons where the action stops a genuine break or scoring opportunity.I think the way it's reffed is clear and settled for a few years now.
I also think it is reffed the way it should be. There are difficult cases on the margins but by and large it is OK in my opinion. The two in Aussie game were fine. First one could have been a PT from memory.
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Loads of good comments here but here's my two cents:
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Scrums: They have become a pushing contest and a means of earning penalties. Turn them into a real contest like lineouts by putting the ball in straight and making hookers actually hook. Might make the scrums a bit quicker too.
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Stop the continuous mucking about with the rules for different levels of rugby. Agree on what needs to be fixed in the game, trial the solutions, agree the changes and roll them out for say, 4 years. Only make changes outside of that in exceptional circumstances. e.g. player safety.
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Stop the whining to the referees. Captain asks for an explanation, he gets one and can query his understanding and that's it. No arguing.
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Make the distinction between dangerous play and accidental errors/collisions way clearer. There's a world of difference between, say, Angus T's collision and a deliberate shoulder to the head so acknowledge that as the plethora of cards is ruining the game. Ditto deliberate knock-downs
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Find a way to streamline TMO interaction. Maybe TMO makes the call and it's ratified by the Ref. Keep it off the big screen and use an iPad or similar
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Stop the waterboys coming on every time there's a break. If you want a drink, ask the ref who can say OK or not.
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Make the current SH v NH 3 Test series an annual or bi-annual thing. This July has produced some cracking games and results.
May not fix all of the problems but I think it could be a start.
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@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical.Yes the offense is a PK.
The card comes in when it's considered a professional foul. That has been considered in the case of deliberate knockons where the action stops a genuine break or scoring opportunity.I think the way it's reffed is clear and settled for a few years now.
I also think it is reffed the way it should be. There are difficult cases on the margins but by and large it is OK in my opinion. The two in Aussie game were fine. First one could have been a PT from memory.
I think far more often now the reffing team are (consciously or subconsciously) using YC as their starting point when reviewing these. The Maori game incident was a case in point, where the AR was almost arguing a point of difference to where I think he knew the ref and TMO were going (ie YC).
That needs to change or just change the law from it being a penalty to remove the nonesense we see.
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@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
Deliberate knock ons.
I could well be in a minority of one but I am comfortablewith that.
I don't agree with the consensus on here that deliberate knock ons are being refereed incorrectly.
In faxt i would go further and say that a player cannot deliberately bat the ball forward and then collect it. That should be a PK as well.
It is not legal to throw, or bat a ball forward over the head of an opposition player and then run around and catch it. Same applies for attempted intercepts in my view.
Even if you don't want to accept my position, I believe i can aegue that both YCs in the Aussie game were correct. Sticking out a hand with the expectation that you might be able to scoop it up later is not something that should be allowed in the game and it isn't.
These players cannnot say they are trying to catch the ball and claim ignorance that a very likely outcome is that the ball will go forward. That is wilfull blindness in my book and wilfully being blind is tantamount to intent.
Both prevented good scoring opportunities and were professional fouls and were correctly carded.
Perhaps 10 minutes is too long for professional fouls/repeated infringements - maybe we need to adopt a policy of 10 minutes or until next points (excluding 3 points from the PK awarded if applicable).
Angus red card:
The red card for Angus was wrong. He was coming across and unexpectedly a player changed direction and ran into him from a funny angle. I believed it was not even foul play. I was genuinely surprised to see the judiciary back the red card.
I don't like genuine accidents being carded like that.
I also much prefer the 20 minute RC rule.
We’ve done this
Watch it back
He had arms either side of the ball carrier ready to make the tackle
He was slow and high and the first point of contact was head on head
Red
No discussion
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@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
Deliberate knock ons.
I could well be in a minority of one but I am comfortablewith that.
I don't agree with the consensus on here that deliberate knock ons are being refereed incorrectly.
In faxt i would go further and say that a player cannot deliberately bat the ball forward and then collect it. That should be a PK as well.
It is not legal to throw, or bat a ball forward over the head of an opposition player and then run around and catch it. Same applies for attempted intercepts in my view.
Even if you don't want to accept my position, I believe i can aegue that both YCs in the Aussie game were correct. Sticking out a hand with the expectation that you might be able to scoop it up later is not something that should be allowed in the game and it isn't.
These players cannnot say they are trying to catch the ball and claim ignorance that a very likely outcome is that the ball will go forward. That is wilfull blindness in my book and wilfully being blind is tantamount to intent.
Both prevented good scoring opportunities and were professional fouls and were correctly carded.
Perhaps 10 minutes is too long for professional fouls/repeated infringements - maybe we need to adopt a policy of 10 minutes or until next points (excluding 3 points from the PK awarded if applicable).
Angus red card:
The red card for Angus was wrong. He was coming across and unexpectedly a player changed direction and ran into him from a funny angle. I believed it was not even foul play. I was genuinely surprised to see the judiciary back the red card.
I don't like genuine accidents being carded like that.
I also much prefer the 20 minute RC rule.
We’ve done this
Watch it back
He had arms either side of the ball carrier ready to make the tackle
He was slow and high and the first point of contact was head on head
Red
No discussion
How much time did he have to get out of the way or adjust position?
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@MiketheSnow 100% it was a red. Nothing he could have done about it though - so what's achieved by sending him?
Is he suddenly going to be able to get low in half a second with a centre running at him on the switch next time? No.
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
Deliberate knock ons.
I could well be in a minority of one but I am comfortablewith that.
I don't agree with the consensus on here that deliberate knock ons are being refereed incorrectly.
In faxt i would go further and say that a player cannot deliberately bat the ball forward and then collect it. That should be a PK as well.
It is not legal to throw, or bat a ball forward over the head of an opposition player and then run around and catch it. Same applies for attempted intercepts in my view.
Even if you don't want to accept my position, I believe i can aegue that both YCs in the Aussie game were correct. Sticking out a hand with the expectation that you might be able to scoop it up later is not something that should be allowed in the game and it isn't.
These players cannnot say they are trying to catch the ball and claim ignorance that a very likely outcome is that the ball will go forward. That is wilfull blindness in my book and wilfully being blind is tantamount to intent.
Both prevented good scoring opportunities and were professional fouls and were correctly carded.
Perhaps 10 minutes is too long for professional fouls/repeated infringements - maybe we need to adopt a policy of 10 minutes or until next points (excluding 3 points from the PK awarded if applicable).
Angus red card:
The red card for Angus was wrong. He was coming across and unexpectedly a player changed direction and ran into him from a funny angle. I believed it was not even foul play. I was genuinely surprised to see the judiciary back the red card.
I don't like genuine accidents being carded like that.
I also much prefer the 20 minute RC rule.
We’ve done this
Watch it back
He had arms either side of the ball carrier ready to make the tackle
He was slow and high and the first point of contact was head on head
Red
No discussion
How much time did he have to get out of the way or adjust position?
Enough time to change his trajectory and attempt the tackle
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@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
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@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
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The game has big problems. I've loved rugby my whole life, and I'm struggling to maintain interest.
The proliferation of cards is ruining games. I have no blame for the refs. It's a very difficult game to referee, and even with wholesale simplification of the laws it would remain so. I think that's a given, and the logical solution to ''some things get seen, some things get missed" is to make the consequences of the decisions less major. We've moved in the other direction, and it has been a disaster. An accident shouldn't decide a game, especially when some accidents are ruled on, and some aren't, as that is just a lottery. If you can say for sure that something is deliberate filth, then that should be a red card, as it always has been.
If we are consistently giving cards because multiple penalties aren't sufficient disincentive for a team, then maybe we need to reconsider the amount of points for a penalty vs a try rather than turning it into 14 vs 15.
I'd rather see more penalty tries for failed intercepts than yellow cards.
The TMO for everything has to stop. It just slows the game down too much. The number of in-game rests has to stop. I have taken to recording all but the really big games, and using a '10-second forward' button to skip all the rests, all the scrum prep, all the 'injuries', all the lineout huddles. Games take me about half the time to watch, which is ridiculous. I can watch the whole time the ball is in play in close to the same time as an extended highlights package.
Players are too big. If Ta'avao weighed 100kg instead of 125kg, maybe he's quick enough to avoid that head clash. The impacts all get bigger, and we get more injuries. All the rests and the substitution rules play into this. I just don't see the positives. It's just as entertaining to watch a couple of 90kg guys smash each other, they're usually faster and have better skills, and player safety would be improved.
