The Current State of Rugby
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@booboo said in The Current State of Rugby:
Some random thoughts before I really depress myself and read this thread (only a couple of pages in).
First on deliberate knock ons, but I think constant TMO interventions and questionable application of the head impact protocols are bigger issues for me. Can I throw in the issue of too many subs as well?
I agree that a few other things are worse / have more impact during a match than blanket ruling that failed intercept equals professional foul. As you allude to, red cards for all head contacts plus TMOs. But at least for those, I can see the logic of a problem they were originally trying to fix. Player safety and blatantly incorrect decisions. Even if they have made a mess of the solution.
But with the failed intercepts interpretations it is IMO where the punishment to crime is the most out of whack. And the need for it was never there in the first place.
I agree a deliberate knock on can occur, and it should be punishable with a penalty. I have no problem with a referee deciding this based own their own judgement. ( There will be weeks of online gnashing of teeth and ref-blaming regardless, that is what rugby fandom has descended to.)
It is 90% to 99% of the time a punishment out of whack by an exponent of 4.
I think it is usually just knock-on = should be a scrum.
But, it will currently be ruled as deliberate - then a penalty. Power of 2.
It will be a yellow. Power of 3.
It will be a penalty try, Power of 4.Quadruple punishment for a failed intercept.
What is the difference to that 'crime' than a close ruck contest. Only releasing the tackled player for a split second and risking a penalty. Or contesting ruck with hand a second too long and risking a penalty. These can also be cynical, but often aren't, are usually just normal rugby contests for possession, and the referee makes a judgement. Why is this no longer applied to intercepts? Like it was for the first 120 odd years of international rugby? Who decreed the blanket quadruple punishment for a problem that didn't need solving?
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@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA I don't really buy this man. Rugby isn't like Football where a powerhouse can miss out on the WC entirely and no one bats an eye (Italy four x winners, missed it twice in a row). And losing two major stakeholders (even relatively smaller ones) is a big deal for a smallish sport when those two come from a pool of, what, eight major stakeholders?
A rugby world cup without the All Blacks... what a waste of time that would be.
Didn't you start this train of thought based on "silly of WR to ignore a drop off in interest in the SH ". You seem to have escalated it to the All Blacks boycotting a world cup? because?
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@Rapido said in The Current State of Rugby:
@booboo said in The Current State of Rugby:
Some random thoughts before I really depress myself and read this thread (only a couple of pages in).
First on deliberate knock ons, but I think constant TMO interventions and questionable application of the head impact protocols are bigger issues for me. Can I throw in the issue of too many subs as well?
I agree that a few other things are worse / have more impact during a match than blanket ruling that failed intercept equals professional foul. As you allude to, red cards for all head contacts plus TMOs. But at least for those, I can see the logic of a problem they were originally trying to fix. Player safety and blatantly incorrect decisions. Even if they have made a mess of the solution.
But with the failed intercepts interpretations it is IMO where the punishment to crime is the most out of whack. And the need for it was never there in the first place.
I agree a deliberate knock on can occur, and it should be punishable with a penalty. I have no problem with a referee deciding this based own their own judgement. ( There will be weeks of online gnashing of teeth and ref-blaming regardless, that is what rugby fandom has descended to.)
It is 90% to 99% of the time a punishment out of whack by an exponent of 4.
I think it is usually just knock-on = should be a scrum.
But, it will currently be ruled as deliberate - then a penalty. Power of 2.
It will be a yellow. Power of 3.
It will be a penalty try, Power of 4.Quadruple punishment for a failed intercept.
What is the difference to that 'crime' than a close ruck contest. Only releasing the tackled player for a split second and risking a penalty. Or contesting ruck with hand a second too long and risking a penalty. These can also be cynical, but often aren't, are usually just normal rugby contests for possession, and the referee makes a judgement. Why is this no longer applied to intercepts? Like it was for the first 120 odd years of international rugby? Who decreed the blanket quadruple punishment for a problem that didn't need solving?
Should also point out, there is possibility of red card for failed intercept, if the player was unlucky enough to have knock a kick receiver earlier in game, or have been the arbitrarily 3rd consecutive team penalty and been yellowed earlier.
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What I find interesting is how attitudes between the SH and NH towards all this are very very different , not taking aim at anyone
But if i read through Irish comments on you tube or whereever , they complain all the time about what the refs let go ,its probably their biggest complaint , like they want it to be stricter and ruled even harsher , this is regular
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Deliberate knock ons.
I could well be in a minority of one but I am comfortablewith that.
I don't agree with the consensus on here that deliberate knock ons are being refereed incorrectly.
In faxt i would go further and say that a player cannot deliberately bat the ball forward and then collect it. That should be a PK as well.
It is not legal to throw, or bat a ball forward over the head of an opposition player and then run around and catch it. Same applies for attempted intercepts in my view.
Even if you don't want to accept my position, I believe i can aegue that both YCs in the Aussie game were correct. Sticking out a hand with the expectation that you might be able to scoop it up later is not something that should be allowed in the game and it isn't.
These players cannnot say they are trying to catch the ball and claim ignorance that a very likely outcome is that the ball will go forward. That is wilfull blindness in my book and wilfully being blind is tantamount to intent.
Both prevented good scoring opportunities and were professional fouls and were correctly carded.
Perhaps 10 minutes is too long for professional fouls/repeated infringements - maybe we need to adopt a policy of 10 minutes or until next points (excluding 3 points from the PK awarded if applicable).
Angus red card:
The red card for Angus was wrong. He was coming across and unexpectedly a player changed direction and ran into him from a funny angle. I believed it was not even foul play. I was genuinely surprised to see the judiciary back the red card.
I don't like genuine accidents being carded like that.
I also much prefer the 20 minute RC rule.
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo I don't mind your approach at all. It's clear. My gripe is simply that the current rulings don't match the law (which hinges on intent)
Presumably a fumbled catch would be OK though? Where does the line get drawn? Two hands?Two hands is a reasonable position.
I cannot recall too many people reliably catching a ball traveling at speed one handed.
There was an earlier on the aussie game where an English player got to hands to an intercept and that was just a scrum. Then someone on here, complained about the inconsistency. There was no inconsistency in my view.
Every law/rule requires interpretation on difficult cases. Thank goodness for that or I wouldn't have a job.
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@Duluth said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
I agree that the TMO should make the call.
If the ref is to make the call, the conversations should be private. They should be free to speak candidly with each other, not worry about undermining the authority of the referee.
In other words if the refs thinks RC and the TMO thinks just a PK the TMO should be free to privately say, "nah mate you got this all mixed up and here's why" rather than speaking in code about "let me show you another angle and other ambiguous statements".
Frankly the TMO has the best view and it should be on him or her to make the call.
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@Damo only way to remove the ambiguity is maybe alter the rule to say you cannot attempt to catch the oppositions pass.
I mean if you get passed the ball by your team mate, and you fumble the catch, it travels forward and you regather, as long as it doesnt touch another player, it is considered play on, or should these also be ruled knock ons? Or is there another interpretation for these? Genuine question, not needling.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rancid-Schnitzel we had one of our boys "Blue carded" on the weekend, the physio ran him through all the tests and signed him off before our game had even ended....but he still needs to go see a proper doc, who recommended an MRI etc...so hes out for at least a week and possible 2 even if nothing is wrong....obviously more if there is
I couldn't argue with the precautions...and i guess the real difference is if the doc tells him its serious and he shouldn't play again....then he'll coach...or manage like i had too last year....a lot seems to be keeping these guys playing....because its their job
I don't have a problem with those protocols. That's rugby unfortunately.
Neither do I.
I once abandoned a game because I had observed a player take a vicious blow to the head and I directly told the coach he wasn't to come back on. Then he did come back on and the physio told me it was fine because she had checked him.
We got into a Mexican standoff and I just decided I couldn't be bothered arguing with a physio (who may or may not have medical training about concussions) and I called it off. That was before the days of Blue cards.
Score was one sided so no real impact on anyone. There was also only about 5 minutes to go.
The school got a real rarking from the union.
From memory it wasn't helped by fact only a week or so earlier a girl in Canada had died during a school girl game after taking 2 blows to the head in a few days apart.
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@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo only way to remove the ambiguity is maybe alter the rule to say you cannot attempt to catch the oppositions pass.
I mean if you get passed the ball by your team mate, and you fumble the catch, it travels forward and you regather, as long as it doesnt touch another player, it is considered play on, or should these also be ruled knock ons? Or is there another interpretation for these? Genuine question, not needling.
Funnily enough that used to be the rule. If you tried to catch a pass, it went forward and then you caught it before it hit the ground it was a knock on. I don't advocate going back to that.
I would make 3 points though.
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it needs to be an actual attempt to catch it, not an attempt to knock it forward and catch it later. That should be always be at least a knock on.
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if you try to catch the ball, it goes forward and then instead of catching it you knock it backwards before it hits the ground, technically by the book that is a knock on. You must regather it not to be a knock on. It's never refereed that way though and I am OK with that.
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There is now a law that if you are juggling the ball trying to bring it under control you are deemed in possession and can be tackled. That is a good law.
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@Damo on 1, that is where we disagree as for me, I will only attempt to knock it up/back, but if I get it wrong, YC.
Too many cards seem to hinge on split second decisions, reactions or timing in a game played at pace.
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@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical. -
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
Card only comes in due to being cynical.
most other cynical acts result in just a penalty? Why, IMO because they are usually at rucks, mauls, for off side and are more often than not, just called a penalty, maybe they get a warning, probably not, TMO doesnt often involve in them unless 'foul play'
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical.Yes the offense is a PK.
The card comes in when it's considered a professional foul. That has been considered in the case of deliberate knockons where the action stops a genuine break or scoring opportunity.I think the way it's reffed is clear and settled for a few years now.
I also think it is reffed the way it should be. There are difficult cases on the margins but by and large it is OK in my opinion. The two in Aussie game were fine. First one could have been a PT from memory.
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Loads of good comments here but here's my two cents:
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Scrums: They have become a pushing contest and a means of earning penalties. Turn them into a real contest like lineouts by putting the ball in straight and making hookers actually hook. Might make the scrums a bit quicker too.
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Stop the continuous mucking about with the rules for different levels of rugby. Agree on what needs to be fixed in the game, trial the solutions, agree the changes and roll them out for say, 4 years. Only make changes outside of that in exceptional circumstances. e.g. player safety.
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Stop the whining to the referees. Captain asks for an explanation, he gets one and can query his understanding and that's it. No arguing.
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Make the distinction between dangerous play and accidental errors/collisions way clearer. There's a world of difference between, say, Angus T's collision and a deliberate shoulder to the head so acknowledge that as the plethora of cards is ruining the game. Ditto deliberate knock-downs
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Find a way to streamline TMO interaction. Maybe TMO makes the call and it's ratified by the Ref. Keep it off the big screen and use an iPad or similar
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Stop the waterboys coming on every time there's a break. If you want a drink, ask the ref who can say OK or not.
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Make the current SH v NH 3 Test series an annual or bi-annual thing. This July has produced some cracking games and results.
May not fix all of the problems but I think it could be a start.
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@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Damo No one is saying the rulings were wrong. They were correct.
People just correctly think a yellow card for a failed intercept is dumb.
And I am saying that it isn't dumb.
The law says a penalty, not a YC doesn't it?
Card only comes in due to being cynical.Yes the offense is a PK.
The card comes in when it's considered a professional foul. That has been considered in the case of deliberate knockons where the action stops a genuine break or scoring opportunity.I think the way it's reffed is clear and settled for a few years now.
I also think it is reffed the way it should be. There are difficult cases on the margins but by and large it is OK in my opinion. The two in Aussie game were fine. First one could have been a PT from memory.
I think far more often now the reffing team are (consciously or subconsciously) using YC as their starting point when reviewing these. The Maori game incident was a case in point, where the AR was almost arguing a point of difference to where I think he knew the ref and TMO were going (ie YC).
That needs to change or just change the law from it being a penalty to remove the nonesense we see.
