Crusaders v Blues
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While it turned into a very good game in the end, I still think the cards spoiled it a bit in terms of knowing where each team is really at in relation to the other. I suspect the Blues have their noses in front based on the play before the two cards, but we still have to keep in mind the Blues very nearly let this game slip/the Crusaders very nearly won.
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@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
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@booboo said in Crusaders v Blues:
Nah. Still think he's been the next best 10, and went ok.
Didn't watch too much of him last year, but he seems to be turning into a pretty mature player. Not his best game today, but he'll learn from that.
@tim I think Foster will want to have a good look at him in the AB camp at the very least and to give Foster some credit, he has done well picking and handling new ABs
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I've only seen a YouTube highlights package but have to say well played to the Blues, a deserved win. Papali'i clearly the star turn in either forward pack but Jordan seems to have also had another big night. It's now a Papali'i vs Savea debate for mine.
As an aside, I was quite dismayed by the lack of gas shown by Dom Gardiner as he pretty much lumbered towards the corner. He had a head start and the angle from around 22 out but was easily mown down well short of the corner. He's supposed to be a 6 (albeit covering lock in this 23) and should be able to make more of a contest of that situation.
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@nzzp said in Crusaders v Blues:
@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
Agree, I and other Sader fans have been beating this drum for a while now. There is not the depth there once was and there are some positions where the starters are just Super level at best. In saying that a couple of youngsters have popped their heads up high enough this year to suggest that there is still some talent coming through.
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@shark said in Crusaders v Blues:
I've only seen a YouTube highlights package but have to say well played to the Blues, a deserved win. Papali'i clearly the star turn in either forward pack but Jordan seems to have also had another big night. It's now a Papali'i vs Savea debate for mine.
As an aside, I was quite dismayed by the lack of gas shown by Dom Gardiner as he pretty much lumbered towards the corner. He had a head start and the angle from around 22 out but was easily mown down well short of the corner. He's supposed to be a 6 (albeit covering lock in this 23) and should be able to make more of a contest of that situation.
It was Ioane who was chasing him.
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@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Blues:
@nzzp said in Crusaders v Blues:
@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
Agree, I and other Sader fans have been beating this drum for a while now. There is not the depth there once was and there are some positions where the starters are just Super level at best. In saying that a couple of youngsters have popped their heads up high enough this year to suggest that there is still some talent coming through.
Yes and no. I don't think we're any worse off than any other side in terms of fringe or even inadequate players. The depth is not what it once was. There are literally dozens of players in and around the squads these days who never would have had a look in before we started losing substantial quantities of players overseas, combined with vast inexperience as lots of U20s are pressed immediately into service. Looking at our side last night, the only areas we were a bit exposed were at lock / lock cover and hooker cover. But even at lock, Gallagher looks immediately at home. Compare that to the Blues sporting the likes of Eklund, old man Romano, Goodhue, Lam, Lay, Choat and Heem, none of whom would have been required in Super Rugby's hey day, and we look a cut above, on paper.
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Ioane/Papalii cover tackle on Gardiner:
BTW, the last tackle of the game was made by Sotutu - hard hit with the shoulder that produced a knock-on.
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@shark said in Crusaders v Blues:
Compare that to the Blues sporting the likes of Eklund, old man Romano, Goodhue, Lam, Lay, Choat and Heem, none of whom would have been required in Super Rugby's hey day
You mean in the glory days of Corey Flynn, Ross Filipo, Con Barrell, Sam Broomhall, and Adam Whitelock? All those players you named are high quality at Super Rugby level. Lay was very solid for Bristol in the UK Premiership.
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Credit to Mike Fraser ,a couple of things he could of looked at , but what I do like about his style , he’s not fooled by players trying to hold other players in and he has an understanding and awareness of where players who have made a tackle are , many times you see officials immediately penalise a trapped players , but I saw on least 2 occasions there was still a channel for the ball to be freed up , we saw this with a collapsed maul that the Blues had held up ,but saw an opportunity for the Crusaders to free the ball up .
The YC for Havilli whilst it might have seemed harsh , if you did that anywhere else on the paddock it’s a penalty , but when a team gets that far in behind that deep , I thought Fraser was right on the money . -
@steven-harris Totally agree, I thought he had a great game and contributed to the competition. Like you say several times the halfback tried to milk it with the trapped player but he wasn't having it.
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Serious question here re the Havili, but what was Havili supposed to do in the situation? The way I saw it in real time (haven't seen it again apart from the slow motion replays so can accept being wrong) is Havili tackled old mate in full flow with his arm over the ball and as they were rolling at full tit on the ground Havili removes his arm from around the ball. The ball comes loose. Intent aside (the only person who truly knows the answer to that is Havili), I reckon it would have been almost physically impossible for Havli not to remove his arm in that situation given he was probably thinking about getting back to his feet asap.
Pity Havili will never say publically if he did it on purpose or not. People probably wouldn't believe him anyway, especially if he said there was no intent.
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@crazy-horse I think it comes down to the outcome as opposed to the intent. The result was the Blues were hot on attack and a high chance of scoring and by rolling away and knocking the ball out the momentum was lost. It was tough on Havilli but I think the outcome was correct.
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@chimoaus said in Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse I think it comes down to the outcome as opposed to the intent. The result was the Blues were hot on attack and a high chance of scoring and by rolling away and knocking the ball out the momentum was lost. It was tough on Havilli but I think the outcome was correct.
I get what you are saying because there are plenty of other situations where intent doesn't matter, but apart from scrums, they tend to be around player safety.
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@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Blues:
@chimoaus said in Crusaders v Blues:
@crazy-horse I think it comes down to the outcome as opposed to the intent. The result was the Blues were hot on attack and a high chance of scoring and by rolling away and knocking the ball out the momentum was lost. It was tough on Havilli but I think the outcome was correct.
I get what you are saying because there are plenty of other situations where intent doesn't matter, but apart from scrums, they tend to be around player safety.
Just like when the crusaders "accidentally" get on the wrong side of the ruck and slow the ball down, it could easily be avoided and didn't need to happen.
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Haven't read the thread. I'm sorry it has become a bit long. Here are my very long 2 cents:
First, congrats to the Blues and their fans. Monkey is off the back, losing streak in Chch broken. I hope you celebrated big, or are still going to! It was a fun game to watch, although the red card spoilt it for a while, but that's exactly why I think the 20 min red card rule is correct.
My man of the match was Dalton Papali'i, who had a huge game. If Sam Cane wasn't the ABs captain, it would be a close battle between those two for the black 7 jersey. On form, I could see Paps winning that battle.
Props: Moody was good and sad to see him go off injured. I think it influenced the game in that it weakened the already weakened Crusaders pack. Too many lightweight youngsters in that Saders pack. Also good was Hodgman - I hope he's okay - who clearly had the better of Jager. Not sure he'll be back in black this year, though, although I'd pick him over Bower.
Hooker: Taylor was very good. He's gradually getting back to his best form. His line-out throwing was on point and if the Crusaders had a stronger pack, I think he would have scored more than one try off the driving maul. Someone on the Fern predicted that Jackson wouldn't come on. He was right haha. Good try to Eklund. Didn't notice Riccitelli doing something dumb yesterday.
Locks: big Romano, especially his size and experience were crucial in the Blues' pack; he was also hardly penalised for things that deserved penalising (going in from the side, offside). Barrett, see below, but when he's not doing stupid things, he's been the best lock in the country and being sent off hurt the Crusaders big time. It forced an inexperienced 20-year old to play 80 minutes, where otherwise he'd have been subbed off.
Loosies: already mentioned DP; Sotutu also had a great game. Good work rate makes a big difference and he showed he's worth that black jersey. Blackadder and Robinson were very evenly matched and went about their business as they should, but nothing spectacular. Didn't see in last night's game why Robinson is so talked-up by Blues fans. Probably not the game for it. Matera had good impact and should probably have come on sooner.
Halfbacks: Christie definitely the best halfback on the field, but I still find him too flaky and not always taking the right options. Knocked himself (almost) out. I hope he's okay. Bryn Hall needs a break. How terrible was he? I'm not a fan of TTT but maybe he should be on the bench in the next few games. Box kicks, especially when badly executed, yuck.
First fives: BB was good in the first half, but I still don't think he plays like a 10. He's a good ball runner, but his kicking game is awful. Mo'unga, who has looked like playing with the handbrake on all season, took it off when SB was sent off and was his brilliant old self. One missed tackle. Was that the one where he was taken out by Hall? It was costly.
Midfield: Rieko was outstanding. That try saving tackle also saved the win for the Blues, although it was on an rookie lock. If it had been a back , today's story would have probably have been different. But let's not focus on just that tackle, he was great all game. Havili had a weak game on defence, but on attack he was good; again crucial in the creation of tries. The card was a soft one. With the speed they had, it all happened in the momentum of the tackle and I don't think he had a way of avoiding what happened. Anyway, the letter of the law was applied, not common sense, so the card was given. Can't really further argue with that. Braydon Ennor, did he play? Completely invisible and outplayed. Fainga'anuku should have played in the midfield. Didn't see any reason in RTS' 15 minutes on the field of why he should be an AB. He needs more game time.
Wings: Fainga'anuku's strength is wasted on the wing. I like him more in the midfield. Still, a quiet game and he hardly got the ball. I hardly noticed the Blues wings either. I guess it wasn't a game for wingers, unless you're called Reece. Two good tries.
Fullback: I really like Perofeta, but prefer him at 10. Maybe they should swap him and BB. Best fullback on the field was no doubt Jordan. It's such a pleasure to watch him play! I'd really like to see more of Sullivan. Didn't have much impact in his 19 minutes.
Referee: he was mostly good, and Blues fans will be happy. I saw something dodgy that eventually lead to one of the Blues' tries, with Blues players being well offside, that wasn't penalised, but I can't be bothered to go looking for it in the game to see if the ref was right or not. It's good that this Blues' win has brought some excitement back to the comp.
Red card: before the game I already thought he was the main candidate for a red card, and SB didn't disappoint. Same level of stupid shit as Laulala's shoulder hit, so should expect same verdict: red card upheld, 6-week mid-range entry point, 50% reduction for clean sheet, remorse blah blah, and then being offered the extra "head contact coaching intervention" to get a week of his 3-match ban. Sitting out 2 games. I disagree with this, but if Laulala only gets two weeks off, then SB should get the same. Unlike Laulala, SB still has great value for the ABs, he's been the form lock of the comp thus far, so it shouldn't have consequences for his ABs selection.
Overall: great game to watch. The Blues have been steadily building the last few years, with some good recruitment. The Crusaders, I think they've not gone backward, that depth is still there, but injuries and other absences have forced them to bring in young rookies far sooner than I think they planned, and all at the same time, and that has hurt them a bit.
I'd like to see these teams back in the final, with both being full strength. Whether that happens, depends on the games against the Aussies: will complacency set in, how will the officiating affect the games, more injuries, covid etc.Now waiting for the next game to begin. Have a great weekend everyone!
